Muddy Mini-14

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I'm glad others will torture test stuff because I'm not going to.

Same with the Glocks and ARs that guys shoot tens of thousands of rounds through without cleaning.

The Mini advocate retort that this isn't a reasonable real world test of most uses is totally valid. AR guys have the same retort when you test an AR by dumping sand into the open receiver.

A Mini or an AR aren't AKs and that's OK.
 
I think it's interesting to know how far you can push a tool and expect it to still work.

Besides, it beats sitting in a chair and posting on the interwebs.

BSW
Says the guy with 2x my posts
As far as the tool thing, I would never throw my impact gun in the mud and then see how many lug nut's it will remove till it breaks. Why am I doing this?
Just like I don't drain the oil out of my truck just to see how long I can go till the engine seizes

Well, I have been a member here twice as long as you, so I'd say we are about even on the Internet commando thing.

As far as people not expecting the Mini to work under severe conditions, that's not common wisdom if you read the internets:

I agree that a Mini won't take as much abuse as a military rifle. But...

There are a lot of contrary opinions on the interweb. For example:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8419

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The Mini, bury it in the dirt for 2 weeks pull it out shake it off and hit bulls at 150+ yards.


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110730211641AAqB8Ho

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Dirt and grime are not a problem for the Mini-14, the bolt simply will sling that stuff off of it.


http://stoppingpower.info/mini-14-review/

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I suspect this flipping motion helped earn Garands and M14s their reputation as reliable combat rifles as I imagine it would do a good job of slinging off mud and dirt.


http://www.mini14tactical.com/

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Mini 14 - Open bolt design is a close copy of the M14. The open bolt is very forgiving when it comes to dirt, dust or sand. The rifle clean or dirty just keeps ticking and ticking.


http://www.rogco.biz/harbarownerscomments.html

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When exposed to dirt, the Mini is very much like the AK or SKS, it's not fussy and will normally NOT balk like an AR will.

BSW
 
This is a good lesson for all those rocket scientists out there who belive there is no need for a dust cover on an AR.

Like I said you better keep it really really clean.
 
That seems to be the conventional wisdom on the ultraweb. It has a piston, not DI and is AK reliable. I do like Minis (and ARs and AKs)

However, often when I've read, again online, of people really pushing the Mini in carbine course they often fail. Essentially the Mini is reliable but not durable. Firing pins do break (on anything) and with some guns they can be replaced by the user (AR) and on others its a factory or gunsmith job (Mini).

I'm sure the mini is plenty reliable and durable enough. Im not an AR fanboy but was once a Ruger fanboy.

To Rugers credit. The Minis reputation should improve since they actually sell full cap mags to civilians finally.
 
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As far as the tool thing, I would never throw my impact gun in the mud and then see how many lug nut's it will remove till it breaks. Why am I doing this?
Just like I don't drain the oil out of my truck just to see how long I can go till the engine seizes.

Nah, that's kinda different.

I think the mud test with a rifle is more like running offroad vehicles in deep water/mud. Not that the rifle should be treated that way on purpose, but people do get things mucked up a bit.

I remember trashing an offroad motorcycle engine when I got stuck in some mud/sand/goo while trying to motor my way out. I didn't know until after that run that the engine had ingested mud/sand/goo through the intake. Nice. It trashed the cam chain drive and put a hairline crack in the head near an exhaust valve. I did not do that on purpose, sheet happens.

I can imagine similar situations can happen with firearms. I just don't want to do a test on mine to find out. Yet, accidental sheet can happen to guns too I guess.
 
Yeah I know all about off road stuff, been running my Honda 4 trax in Alaska for 15 years. I treat my guns a lot differently then my 4 wheeler,
 
While we're on the idea of Alaska, Mini's see a lot of use there. I saw a lot of Alaska Natives using them and some of those rifles hadn't had easy lives.
Think laying around in the bottom of a boat, getting banged around on a snow machine, occasional saltwater spray... all with minimal care and cleaning. Stainless ones are preferred, but the treatment many of them get proves that "stainless" is more of suggestion than a hard fact.

Still, Mini's do stand up to real-world conditions more harsh than most of us are likely to subject them to.
 
The issue with the mini and dirt is that the primary dirt-sensitive bearing surfaces are pretty much on the outside of the rifle (the two forward bolt lugs and the round camming nub that engages the slot in the operating rod). When mud or sand of the right consistency gets on top of the receiver and works its way into the bolt lug recesses and the op rod handle slot, things can grit up really quickly (you can feel it just by working the charging handle slowly).

One big reason for the AK's legendary reliability when dropped/buried in mud is that the design works very hard to guard its bolt lugs from mud and debris. The safety/selector/dust cover seals the ejection port, and even if it is left open the bolt carrier wraps completely around the top of the bolt and prevents it from being exposed to the elements. The bolt lugs are down in the receiver where you have to work to get at them. And even with all that, the designers of the AK *still* emphasized to keep the rifle buttoned up tight in dusty conditions, and lubricate, lubricate, lubricate to keep any fouling fluidized.

I think this document is a translation of the Soviet AK-47 service manual. It contains the following instructions regarding use of an AK in the desert (page 132).

50. USE OF THE AUTOMATIC RIFLE IN AREAS WITH HIGH TEMPERATURES AND SANDY TERRAIN

In training exercises, during matches and in combat in sandy terrain, it is necessary to adopt all measures for protecting the rifle and ammunition from dust.

During extensive use of the rifle in dusty terrain, the bolt and the guides in the receiver should be oiled frequently through the opening for the magazine and ejection port; the rifle need not be disassembled for this operation. Before reloading the rifle after each oiling, the functioning of the firing and trigger mechanism should be checked by pulling the operating rod to the rear and releasing it several times. In such dusty terrain, the opening in the receiver through which the magazine is inserted into the rifle should be uncovered only when changing magazines and during the period lubrication mentioned above. In combat, the slot for the cocking handle should be covered during lulls in fire by means of the selector cover plate, i.e., by setting the rifle on safety.

The rifle should be cleaned and lubricated after each extensive use. Special care should be taken in cleaning and oiling the working surfaces of the trigger and firing mechanism, bolt, operating rod, extractor, gas tube and magazine.

In combat, lack of time may make it permissible to fire the rifle without oiling it, but not without wiping the dust off all the parts. The rifle must be thoroughly cleaned and oiled at the first opportunity.

Not coincidentally, the AK instructions are *exactly* the way to keep an AR (or a mini, for that matter) running reliably under the same conditions, except that you squirt the oil in the gas vents of an AR rather than in the ejection port and magwell like you would with an AK.

I dare say that in adverse conditions in WW2 or Korea where mud or blowing grit was a factor for M1's, M1 carbines, or M14's, soldiers probably did their best to keep the receiver openings protected from the gunk (wrap it, keep the receiver tucked under your arm, whatever) and cleaned and oiled them as often as they could. I note that the Garand, M1 carbine, and M14 were all issued with oilers so that soldiers could keep the bearing surfaces well lubricated, and it was not uncommon to issue every soldier both oil and Lubriplate grease for that purpose.
 
The issue with the mini and dirt is that the primary dirt-sensitive bearing surfaces are pretty much on the outside of the rifle (the two forward bolt lugs and the round camming nub that engages the slot in the operating rod). When mud or sand of the right consistency gets on top of the receiver and works its way into the bolt lug recesses and the op rod handle slot, things can grit up really quickly (you can feel it just by working the charging handle slowly).

I agree that this fits with my observations with the addition of the op rod bearing surfaces/bolt track as being critical to protect also.

And as a friend of mine pointed out, the Garand did jam in service:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_52/402985_Mini_14_reliability_with_different_lubes.html

Jack Lucas - Rifle jams on Iwo Jima
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGhPjeayJY


"At his side (Andy) Carter cranked out two rounds at the Japs then cursed in helpless anger, his second rifle jammed. The Japs were coming. Two of them reached our foxhole. Carter snatched up a souvenir Jap rifle and I saw him stand up and impale a Jap on its bayonet."
http://donmooreswartales.com/2010/07/02/william-harrell/


Walter Josefiak - "Engaging in hand-to-hand combat when his rifle jammed, he overpowered and killed the soldier before continuing his vigilant patrol."*
http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=42122


"The Lions of Iwo Jima," page 109: "His M1 rifle jammed, its receiver clogged with loose volcanic ash. He grabbed a carbine, but it, too, was jammed."
books.google.com/books?id=lTXQjZTJZgsC&pg=PA109


Dale Hanson - "Reaching the crest of a ridge, he leaped across, opened fire on 6 Japanese and killed 4 before his rifle jammed."
http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id194.html


ALEJANDRO RUIZ - "When an enemy soldier charged him, his rifle jammed."
http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id194.html

BSW
 
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What is the Mini's intended use? Being transported to a sunny range in a case, shoot a box of ammo, then home and cleaned? Not, say, being tossed behind the seat of a pickup tha's driven in dusty conditions for a month? Not being stuck on a ATV being ridden in the mud?

BSW
Just about everything except military usage. I don't recall seeing to many prison guards or LEO crawling through the mud. Using it out in the field while camping or hunting is one thing but crawling through the mud is another.
 
Wasn't the Mini designed to compete in military trials?
I don't think they tried in the USA. Maybe in some foreign country. It was intended for civilian and LEO usage. Some countries did buy them and Ruger built a select fire version for a few years.
 
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