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Mugger Shoots Compliant Victim (Pittsburgh)

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Beren, Jan 4, 2003.

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  1. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    From the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review:

    The gunman demanded Michael Lahoff's wallet. Lahoff did what police suggest: He handed over the wallet without resistance. But the gunman didn't follow the script and run off with his haul.

    Instead, he shot Lahoff, of Castle Shannon, who now lies paralyzed and in critical condition in Mercy Hospital, Uptown, police said.

    Pittsburgh police were searching Friday for the gunman who shot the 50-year-old copier repairman in the Smithfield & Liberty parking garage, Downtown.

    Full story available at:

    Man shot in downtown garage
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2003
  2. JackShandy

    JackShandy Member

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    Wherever I go, there I am...
    Why?

    Bad guy has what he wants, and still shoots. What does he hope to accomplish? Well, hopefully it'll come back on him in a horrible fashion in the near future.
    That's one of the most depressing things I've read.
     
  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    How easy is it to get a license for a conceal weapon in Pittsburg?

    If it's impossible, what irony. The police couldn't protect the victim and the victim couldn't protect himself.
     
  4. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    According to the FBI's stats presented on The Learning Channel or Discovery, the bad guys shoot compliant folks or just random witnesses who are present about 12-14% of the time. I don't consider those odds to be that good. If you watch some of these shows dealing with cops or police work, or maybe dealing with crooks, they often show a bunch of security camera videos and there will often be one or more incidents shown where the bad guys shoot some of the good guys even though everything went as they wanted. The really scary ones are when the bad guys leave, then come back in the store to shoot somebody, and then leave again.

    Based on the stats, compliance does work most of the time, but I am not comfortable with that sort of mind set.

    The real concern always posed is that you might make things worse if you resist in some manner. How much worse can it get than some guy with a gun pointed at me and threatening to kill me? Concern should not be on whether things could get worse or not. If they do get worse, I am dead and it doesn't matter. Concern should be on making the situation better for me.
     
  5. sasnofear

    sasnofear member

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    Why don't they GET A JOB!
     
  6. armabill

    armabill Member

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    He shot cause he didn't want to leave a witness.
     
  7. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

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    Some bullies get a rush from having people submit to them, which encourages them to do harm. They only respect strength and force.

    Just as rape isn't about sex, but power, armed violent crime is often about power, and the victims cannot escape harm by complying with the perp's orders.

    It's always a mistake to assume somebody irrational like victimizing you will be otherwise rational in behavior.
     
  8. PATH

    PATH Member

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    1) fight back!

    2) Use the death penalty for this type of crime or at least life imprisonment!

    3) The powers that be should stop telling people to be sheep!

    those are my thoughts on this matter............:banghead: :cuss: :fire:
     
  9. thumbtack

    thumbtack Member

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    I hope that the police find this guy and I hope he tries to fight them.:fire:
     
  10. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    $19, a clean record, and no more than 45 days will get you a LTC in Pennsylvania.
     
  11. DAL

    DAL Member

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    Having a CCW is no guarantee that the same thing wouldn't have happened. The criminal got the drop on him. I'm all for good folks carrying (Vermont style--the US Constitution is all CCW we SHOULD need), but people need to understand that a gun in and of itself doesn't equal a shield against violent criminals (not that that is what some of you were saying).

    Let's just hope the paralysis is temporary, not permanent, but I'm not too optimistic. Let's also hope the malefactor who did this is caught quickly and raped to death in jail.:evil:
    DAL
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2011
  12. jmbg29

    jmbg29 member

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    What a surprise!:rolleyes: :banghead:
     
  13. johnhurd

    johnhurd Member

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    I wonder if

    The victim has changed his voting habits, for they say the definition of a Republican is.... A Democrat that hasn't been mugged yet.
     
  14. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    It is fairly easy for me to reach back towards my wallet and pull out a Glock 27 instead. They are both kept in the same general area and I have to reach behind me the same to get either. That combined with my hysterical whinning of "Oh God please don't shoot me. Oh God no. Just take my wallet." might give the armed robber the idea that I am sheeple.
     
  15. johnhurd

    johnhurd Member

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    You in a world of hurt if you do that

    In California ain't ya, or are you just going to wound him\her?
     
  16. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    I only hope that, put into a similar situation, I react along the same lines as another poster here has indicated:

    1. Beg him not to shoot, initiate whimpering, etc.

    2. Step off the line of attack while drawing my Glock 32. Fire into center of mass while continuing to move. Don't stop shooting until he's falling down, then move on to the next threat - in this particular scenario, the girl. She's an accomplice to a violent felony.

    I would only hope she would obey all verbal commands and not have a weapon in hand.

    3. Reload. By this time all threats should be on the ground, willingly or unwillingly.

    4. Call 911, report that "There has been an attempted mugging at <location>, please send police and medical help. "

    (Anyone have advice on what more to tell 911? Should it go more like:

    "There has been an attempted mugging at <location> and shots were fired. Please send police and medical help. I was the victim, <brief physical description>, please notify the police that I am carrying a firearm for self-defense and that I will immediately comply with their instructions. I cannot disarm myself until they arrive as I still fear for my life and one of the mugger's accomplices is also present.")

    Advice from cops, especially Pittsburgh or State Police, most welcome. What do we tell 911 to protect ourselves and the responders after a self-defense shooting?
     
  17. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Just two minutes from sanity.
    In Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) you need $19 cash, two forms of government issued i.d. (even a hunting license will do for one of them), two references (who will most likely not be contacted), and a clean record. They run instacheck on you, take your picture, and you walk out with your brand spanking new photo i.d. weapons permit. Whole process takes less than half an hour. The process is much the same all over PA, except possibly in Philly. Some counties still make it a two visit process, meaning they don't issue the permit on the spot, although they could. They make you come back at a later date because they have a sheriff who enjoys being a prick, in most cases.
     
  18. RoyRapoport

    RoyRapoport Member

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    Beren, I'd not be surprised if in many places this could get you screwed later. The standard I was taught (by Front Sight) was that you use lethal force only if you think you are at immediate risk of death or injury. I think we mostly all agree on this point.

    Saying "there has been an attempted mugging and shots were fired" can sound later -- and will likely be twisted into later -- like you could have just safely backed off and just refused to give up your wallet.

    I'm much more fond of the line that FS taught us. Assuming the other guy was armed with a firearm, "Hi, I'm <foo> and am at <location>. Someone just tried to attack me with a handgun and I used my gun in self-defense. He needs medical care and if he survives I would like to file criminal charges against him. I am dressed <description>." Depending on the witness situation, I'd consider actually changing "tried to attak me with a handgun" to "tried to shoot me."

    Oh, and for God's sake, by the time the cops are there, if at all feasible, your gun is not in your hands. :)

    Remember, you're the victim here. He initiated the violence. Make sure all your words are to that effect from moment 1. The cops and prosecutors aren't your only problem -- if he survives, he'll possibly sue you. If he dies, his family will possibly sue you

    -roy
     
  19. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    Roy,

    Thanks for the feedback. This was exactly the type of advice I was searching for. Naturally I would only shoot when in reasonable fear of grave physical injury; a strange man pointing a gun at me in a parking garage qualifies, da? ;)

    Would it make more sense to drop the "if he survives" part?

    So, my statement would go something like this:

    "Hello, this is <foo> at <location>. Someone tried to shoot me and I was forced to use my handgun in self-defense. We both need medical care and I would like to file criminal charges. I am dressed <brief description>. I will obey the officer's instructions when they arrive but I am afraid to disarm myself now as my attacker was not alone."

    The medical care is for me (shock) as much as it is for the guy who just got himself shot.
     
  20. Steel

    Steel Member

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    He shot because he is evil and has no fear of punishment.

    "Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the Lord" Isaiah 26:10

    "I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless" Isaiah 13:11
     
  21. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    Huh?

    The California Penal Code states you may defend your life with lethal force if someone is trying to murder you or commit a felony against you. Why would it be any different in California than anywhere else? The law is the law. If someone has you at gun point and is robbing you and you shoot them, the DA isn't going to waste their time on you if you are legally carrying a gun. At least not in my county they are not.

    And as far as the phone call, just state the facts. "A man just attempted to kill me and I shot him because I was afraid he was going to kill me. I am at such and such location. I am a male, white, 5'8", 185 pounds, red hair and beard, wearing a green Hawaiian shirt, blue jeans, have glasses and carrying a Glock 27. The person I shot is down and needs medical assistance. He is no longer armed. Please hurry." When the cops arrive, they will tell you what they want you to do. Just don't point your gun at them.
     
  22. Col. Mustard

    Col. Mustard Member

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    Garage not medic-friendly?

    And this guy was on the 7th floor. Aren't there laws about making such structures accessible to emergency services? :confused:
     
  23. Kentucky Rifle

    Kentucky Rifle Member In Memoriam

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    I was watching one of those "reality shows" a few weeks ago that aired the hidden camera film of "Stop & Rob" type stores. The bad guy comes in and points a revolver at the female clerk and says, "Give up the money". She does and he pulls the trigger anyway, AFTER he gets the money. From three feet away, somehow the bad guy MISSES her head! However the camera clearly shows that her hair flipped back either from muzzle blast or the bullet.
    I had the feeling he only wanted to kill someone to "see how it felt".
    A LOT won't agree, but I think I'd draw and fire~~in other words, take my chances rather than just stand there and take a bullet to the head. Try something like El Rojo said. "Oh PLEASE don't shoot me, here's my wallet~~BANG!

    KR
     
  24. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    UPDATE: Suspect Arrested

    An 18 year-old homeless man was arrested in connection with the Friday shooting of a copier repairman in a Pittsburgh parking garage. The man was scheduled to leave for military service today!

    Too long to post, but a link is below. There are items in the story that will make you sick.

    Oh, how he was caught? The MORON mugger was wearing his high-school sports jacket with his number on it!!

    Police make arrest
     
  25. sm

    sm member

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    Agree , power rush, control.
    maybe high...
    I'm sober...
    plan on keeping it
    that way.
     
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