According to Wikipedia, a .36 Colt Navy fired an 80 grain round ball (.375-.380") which, at approximately 1000 fps, is the equivalent of a .380 ACP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_1851_Navy_Revolver Current jacketed .380 ammo in the 80 grain range will easily run 1000 fps out of a small .380. 90 grain ammo easily runs in the 920-950 fps range. Wild Bill Hickock would have been better armed with a Glock 42.
Musings on Today's .380 Pistols
- Thread starter Kleanbore
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TTv2
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I was going to say the. 30 Super is going to mean larger size pistol and no LCP pocket type pistol can be done in .30, but when I'm thinking about a medium size frame like the Security 380... .30 Super would beat .380 in that, but the appeal to me with the .380 in a locked breech medium frame is low recoil.
Can the .30 Super run with a lightweight 73 or 85 grain bullet?
hutch51
Contributing Member
Sig P238. Have one. It's a nice shooter alright, but picky about what you feed it. Went through four or five boxes of different brands, finally found the Hornady Critical Defense fed and fired reliably. Another hundred rounds later it's a carry weapon when the 1911 doesn't fit. (Actually I borrow it from wifey.)
Wife has me take it to the range on occasion to make sure it still works.
trackskippy
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I got mine when they first came out. Multiple failures every mag. Went through around 700 rounds trying to get things sorted and finally just gave up.
This was what it did, constantly. Kind of a double whammy too, as every one of those was a piece of lost brass.
This was what it did, constantly. Kind of a double whammy too, as every one of those was a piece of lost brass.
unclenunzie
Contributing Member
It may be an optical illusion, in your top-down photo the extractor hook I expect to see I can't see.
trackskippy
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Pretty sure its there. The case is likely in front of it there in the pic. Got a lot of those too.
Dont remember it being broken and Im sure Id have seen it if it was, as I was constantly trying to figure out what was going on. Talked to SIG a couple of times too, and they sent me a different spring, but it wasn't flat as was stated above, they must have come later.
The gun was accurate when you shot it, and as much as I was hoping it would, it just wouldn't run. Thats the only SIG Ive ever owned that didn't.
Dont remember it being broken and Im sure Id have seen it if it was, as I was constantly trying to figure out what was going on. Talked to SIG a couple of times too, and they sent me a different spring, but it wasn't flat as was stated above, they must have come later.
The gun was accurate when you shot it, and as much as I was hoping it would, it just wouldn't run. Thats the only SIG Ive ever owned that didn't.
Nope, not goodA buddy was a PICO fan. We found, to our wonderment, that we could hit small things with the little perisher, but the trigger and the ergos were challenging.
The trigger return spring in his finally failed, and it was challenging to find a replacement...and the replacement failed as well. Beretta no longer supports the pistol.
Moon
fastbolt
Member
The venerable .380ACP has had a lot of fans, and attention from gun makers, over the decades.
I've known a lot of folks who owned and carried them for both LE/Off-duty and private CCW use. The bigger ones were popular, but blow-black designs could still offer some recoil that seemed to border on a similarly sized 9mm. Oh well.
After a dismaying episode with a Beretta M84 in the 80's (bought from another cop), and seeing all the coin-toss reliability of the older PPk/S guns at our range, I stepped away from .380 for many years. It wasn't until the really diminutive pocket .380's came on the scene that I started thinking about the .380 again. The P-3AT didn't do anything for me, but when Ruger came out with a version of it, and the first S&W Bodyguard 380 came out, I started paying attention to the ones coming through our range.
Why? Not because of the caliber, which I'd always considered to be the lowest rung for an off-duty role, meaning 'minimally marginal'. No, it was the ultra small size, which would fit in shorter and tighter front pant's pockets than even my 5-shot J-frames. The caliber was still a trade-off, but one which was offset by being able to conceal it, and ... it was also a step beyond the .25's and .32's when it came to bullet weight and sedate velocities. Different strokes, though.
In my case, one day the decision-makers up the chain of command decided that the minimum approved caliber for secondary (backup) and off-duty use was going to be .380, and all the previous .22's, .25's & .32's carried by many of our folks were relegated to the dustbin of history at our agency. The same policy can be found among a lot of other agencies, although it can become a "Chicken or the Egg" question when trying to figure out how it became that way.
After comparing the original LCP and Bodyguard 380's, I ordered my first (of 2) LCP's. The second one was a newer version of the original model, with a stainless slide and slightly revised trigger/hammer geometry and sights. Both are surprisingly more accurate than I'd expected of such little pistols, and they've fed every type of factory Ball and JHP loads I've tried in them. I carry one or the other in hot weather, when I want a pocket-holstered retirement weapon that is really light, thin and able to be fit into some front pockets that barely conceal, often with less comfort, a J-frame .38SPL or .357MAG.
I also happen to like that the original LCP is a hammer-fired DAO pistol, instead of being striker-fired with a light trigger. Perhaps it's my revolver and TDA pistol background that makes using the LCP's DAO action a non-issue, for me. Dunno.
I don't try to bootstrap the .380 caliber into being a 9mmP by the use of hot-rodded ammo. I accept it for the compromise that it is, and just make sure I maintain my ability to run it quickly and accurately.
I've known a lot of folks who owned and carried them for both LE/Off-duty and private CCW use. The bigger ones were popular, but blow-black designs could still offer some recoil that seemed to border on a similarly sized 9mm. Oh well.
After a dismaying episode with a Beretta M84 in the 80's (bought from another cop), and seeing all the coin-toss reliability of the older PPk/S guns at our range, I stepped away from .380 for many years. It wasn't until the really diminutive pocket .380's came on the scene that I started thinking about the .380 again. The P-3AT didn't do anything for me, but when Ruger came out with a version of it, and the first S&W Bodyguard 380 came out, I started paying attention to the ones coming through our range.
Why? Not because of the caliber, which I'd always considered to be the lowest rung for an off-duty role, meaning 'minimally marginal'. No, it was the ultra small size, which would fit in shorter and tighter front pant's pockets than even my 5-shot J-frames. The caliber was still a trade-off, but one which was offset by being able to conceal it, and ... it was also a step beyond the .25's and .32's when it came to bullet weight and sedate velocities. Different strokes, though.
In my case, one day the decision-makers up the chain of command decided that the minimum approved caliber for secondary (backup) and off-duty use was going to be .380, and all the previous .22's, .25's & .32's carried by many of our folks were relegated to the dustbin of history at our agency. The same policy can be found among a lot of other agencies, although it can become a "Chicken or the Egg" question when trying to figure out how it became that way.
After comparing the original LCP and Bodyguard 380's, I ordered my first (of 2) LCP's. The second one was a newer version of the original model, with a stainless slide and slightly revised trigger/hammer geometry and sights. Both are surprisingly more accurate than I'd expected of such little pistols, and they've fed every type of factory Ball and JHP loads I've tried in them. I carry one or the other in hot weather, when I want a pocket-holstered retirement weapon that is really light, thin and able to be fit into some front pockets that barely conceal, often with less comfort, a J-frame .38SPL or .357MAG.
I also happen to like that the original LCP is a hammer-fired DAO pistol, instead of being striker-fired with a light trigger. Perhaps it's my revolver and TDA pistol background that makes using the LCP's DAO action a non-issue, for me. Dunno.
I don't try to bootstrap the .380 caliber into being a 9mmP by the use of hot-rodded ammo. I accept it for the compromise that it is, and just make sure I maintain my ability to run it quickly and accurately.
Nasty Canasta
Member
I have a couple of 380’s as does Mrs. Sig 238 & Walther PPK/S for her & Colt Mustang Pocketlite & a Browning Black Label 1911 for me.
The Sig & the Colt are the same guns. The Browning’s the best of the bunch & I the only good thing I have to say about the Walther is it looks nice.
The Sig & the Colt are the same guns. The Browning’s the best of the bunch & I the only good thing I have to say about the Walther is it looks nice.
CapnMac
Member
There are some valid points here.
Particularly poignant is how all the "modern" 9x17 pistols tend to the micro size, and the mini-to-midi sizes are all in out-of-production firearms.
Personally, I prefer having more than two fingers on a grip, so I've never found the Colt Mustang (nor the SIG clone of same) particularly comfortable. The Colt 380 Gov't on the other hand, I find a respectable "mini"--and the size perception is complicated--here's my Series 70 on my SIG 365
There's not 5mm difference between the two.
And, the Gov't 380 is accurate enough--I qualified for the TC CHL Instructor course using the one in the photo (that was a a more of a "see if I could")
And, this thread does offer some interesting food for thought. Imagine a Glock 19 (or a 17) in 9x17--would be an absolute pussy cat to shoot. If the grand old Eibar companies were still afloat, imaging a Star BM in 380acp. Makes me wonder if the European manufacturers were disinclined to make more 9x17 hung up on it being a "police" caliber. Dunno
Particularly poignant is how all the "modern" 9x17 pistols tend to the micro size, and the mini-to-midi sizes are all in out-of-production firearms.
Personally, I prefer having more than two fingers on a grip, so I've never found the Colt Mustang (nor the SIG clone of same) particularly comfortable. The Colt 380 Gov't on the other hand, I find a respectable "mini"--and the size perception is complicated--here's my Series 70 on my SIG 365
There's not 5mm difference between the two.
And, the Gov't 380 is accurate enough--I qualified for the TC CHL Instructor course using the one in the photo (that was a a more of a "see if I could")
And, this thread does offer some interesting food for thought. Imagine a Glock 19 (or a 17) in 9x17--would be an absolute pussy cat to shoot. If the grand old Eibar companies were still afloat, imaging a Star BM in 380acp. Makes me wonder if the European manufacturers were disinclined to make more 9x17 hung up on it being a "police" caliber. Dunno
halfmoonclip
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A PP on the Glock board liked to run his 42 up in 9mm territory, a thing no longer necessary with the P365 now available. Much as I love the look/feel of a Walther PP series, they are much more comfortable (and reliable, IMHO) in 7.65/.32.
Always liked the size and weight of the original LCP, and reliable as mine have been, in remained an uncomfortable little (redacted) to shoot much, and always a question of just how much shooting they would tolerate.
Three eighty ammo has gotten better, but nothing is going to turn it to a death ray. Having one you don't mind shooting, and that will let you stay proficient,(and not dread taking it to the range) is especially important in this caliber.
The combination of more states legal for carry, and an aging population, will show us more .380s.
Moon
babaylan
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I would never choose .380 ACP for a primary carry weapon if I had a choice. I think the new S&W Bodyguard 2.0 looks like a nice little pistol, and might just become the modern day PPK/S, but I can't think of a reason why I'd choose that over an the M&P9 Shield Plus, or even the M&P9 Subcompact 2.0, unless there was no possible way to conceal the larger pistol. When considering 95 gr .380 ACP compared with 147 gr 9x19 mm, there's just no contest, and the capacity is the same.
If I were a smaller woman concerned about the size and weight of my CCW when in formal wear, maybe I would favor the Bodyguard 2.0, which is tiny and half the weight of the Shield Plus.
The historical ballistic data for .380 ACP v. 9x19 mm shows a big difference in actual usage, and while new bullet designs might have made .380 ACP more effective, the same is true of 9x19 mm.
If I were a smaller woman concerned about the size and weight of my CCW when in formal wear, maybe I would favor the Bodyguard 2.0, which is tiny and half the weight of the Shield Plus.
The historical ballistic data for .380 ACP v. 9x19 mm shows a big difference in actual usage, and while new bullet designs might have made .380 ACP more effective, the same is true of 9x19 mm.
Tallball
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There isn't a 9mm pistol as small and light as the LCP type of 380. I can (and do) carry an LCP in the breast pocket of a flannel short in the winter. An LCP is my minimalist CC pistol with regards to size, weight, and caliber. IMHO it's better to have an LCP that I can access quickly and easily, rather than having a bigger pistol buried under my coat.
It's an amusing caliber in larger pistols. The heavier and larger "medium-sized" pistols like the Beretta 84, Colt Government, Commercial Makarov, etc. are fun to shoot and nothing wrong with them for SD.
The beat-up Model 84 on the left is Israeli surplus, The one on the right is an Italian surplus Model 81 (32acp). The 38 is easy and comfortable for me to shoot, even in a blowback, if the grips are big enough. I think these are Altamont.
It's an amusing caliber in larger pistols. The heavier and larger "medium-sized" pistols like the Beretta 84, Colt Government, Commercial Makarov, etc. are fun to shoot and nothing wrong with them for SD.
The beat-up Model 84 on the left is Israeli surplus, The one on the right is an Italian surplus Model 81 (32acp). The 38 is easy and comfortable for me to shoot, even in a blowback, if the grips are big enough. I think these are Altamont.
Some better photos in the article.
www.thefirearmblog.com
Ruger LCP
The mainstream media got wind of these engraved Ruger LCP pistol that are selling in Texas and honor Gov.Rick Perry’s shooting of a coyote during an early morning jog.I have not seen any evidence to suggest that Ruger is manufacturing the pistol.I think some clever company is buying up Ruger...
www.thefirearmblog.com
halfmoonclip
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A buddy was down this road with the little SIG, and a trip to the mothership sorted it out.
Moon
WestKentucky
Member
I went through a whole bunch of .380 pistols when I started carrying. My EC9s is far ahead of all of the older .380s. The biggest difference between a pocket 9 and a .380 is generally locked breech vs blowback. Locked breech seems to recoil less due to having less reciprocating mass than a heavy slide on a blowback pistol. Of all the .380 pistols I have ever handled there are only 2 that I truly liked. The Llama Especial and the g42. I traded the .380 off to my dad and I will inherit it some day in the future. The g42 lives on the other side of my bed now. Between the 42 and 43 I would have a whole lot of trouble deciding, and it would probably be one of the X models now. My wife went into pistol buying with zero experience and just wanted something that was easy to handle and operate. That’s the day that the 42 came home.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
The LCP Max looks nice (aesthetics are important, you know).
I don't have huge hands...but they ain't small, either. I generally wear a large glove size. How does it feel in your hand...and do you have 10 round or 12 round magazines?
And what's the slide release feel like? I can't tell you how many pistols I've handled where trying to drop the slide with the release was a major PITA.
My youngest daughter is looking for her first pistol and I think this could appeal to her.
I don't have huge hands...but they ain't small, either. I generally wear a large glove size. How does it feel in your hand...and do you have 10 round or 12 round magazines?
And what's the slide release feel like? I can't tell you how many pistols I've handled where trying to drop the slide with the release was a major PITA.
My youngest daughter is looking for her first pistol and I think this could appeal to her.
InTheField
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You are correct. Funny how that "most .380s are blow back guns" myth seems to hang on forever and ever. They are few and far between now days, and pretty nonexistant with the current crop of plastic framed mini .380s.
Pistolay
Contributing Member
I started my journey down to .380 going on 5 years ago when arthritis and loss of hand strength made micro and subcompact 9s too much for me to handle. During that time I've owned:
Ruger LCP 2 - Solid gun, but I hated the all-black sights, and it was painful to shoot.
SCCY CPX-3 - 100% reliable for about 1500 rounds, a pleasure to shoot, and a good DAO trigger. Unfortunately, they're not made to last. The last time I called CS, I told the guy it had about 2400 rounds, and he reacted like I was crazy to shoot it that much.
Ruger LCP MAX (3) - These are great guns, but I couldn't find a reliable way to shoot them without pain. If these guns were about 3-4 ounces heavier, I'd probably still have them. IMO, they're the perfect gun for someone who wants a micro .380 and doesn't have hand and wrist problems.
SIG P365-380 (3) - I still own two of these, and they're soft-shooting, accurate and rock-solid reliable, but for me, only with FMJ ammo. Others have shot JHP through them with no problems, but not me.
SIG P238 - I've owned this pistol for about 9 months, and it's reliable, soft-shooting and accurate, but I just can't warm up to the cocked-and-locked with manual safety thing, so I don't carry it. I won't get rid of it though, because I like it.
Walther PPK - I wanted one of these for years because of the history of it, including the James Bond thing, but by the time they became generally available a few years ago, I had read enough bad things that I no longer wanted it. A few months ago, my wife convinced me that safe queens are Ok, so I bought one expecting to shoot it a bit and put it away. When I got it, I found that the low bore axis made the recoil tolerable with a Hogue grip because it doesn't torque my wrist, and I just fell in love with it. It's very accurate, considering the crappy sights, and reliable with everything I've put in it. I carry it 95% of the time, and I have one of the new, very soft-shooting .32s to take up some of the practice load.
EDIT: Forget about my 2 Glock 42s. Had to get rid of them because they were extremely weak-grip intolerant.
Ruger LCP 2 - Solid gun, but I hated the all-black sights, and it was painful to shoot.
SCCY CPX-3 - 100% reliable for about 1500 rounds, a pleasure to shoot, and a good DAO trigger. Unfortunately, they're not made to last. The last time I called CS, I told the guy it had about 2400 rounds, and he reacted like I was crazy to shoot it that much.
Ruger LCP MAX (3) - These are great guns, but I couldn't find a reliable way to shoot them without pain. If these guns were about 3-4 ounces heavier, I'd probably still have them. IMO, they're the perfect gun for someone who wants a micro .380 and doesn't have hand and wrist problems.
SIG P365-380 (3) - I still own two of these, and they're soft-shooting, accurate and rock-solid reliable, but for me, only with FMJ ammo. Others have shot JHP through them with no problems, but not me.
SIG P238 - I've owned this pistol for about 9 months, and it's reliable, soft-shooting and accurate, but I just can't warm up to the cocked-and-locked with manual safety thing, so I don't carry it. I won't get rid of it though, because I like it.
Walther PPK - I wanted one of these for years because of the history of it, including the James Bond thing, but by the time they became generally available a few years ago, I had read enough bad things that I no longer wanted it. A few months ago, my wife convinced me that safe queens are Ok, so I bought one expecting to shoot it a bit and put it away. When I got it, I found that the low bore axis made the recoil tolerable with a Hogue grip because it doesn't torque my wrist, and I just fell in love with it. It's very accurate, considering the crappy sights, and reliable with everything I've put in it. I carry it 95% of the time, and I have one of the new, very soft-shooting .32s to take up some of the practice load.
EDIT: Forget about my 2 Glock 42s. Had to get rid of them because they were extremely weak-grip intolerant.
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Ks5shooter
Contributing Member
When I carry a .380(summertime) its a Glock 42 with plus one extension.With proper bullet choice I am fine with it.
babaylan
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I made a stop at my local dealer today and had the opportunity to check out the new S&W Bodyguard 2.0. It's really tiny, and very light weight, but it feels perfectly comfortable even in my hands (I'm over 6'1", so my hands are a bit bigger than most women's). I would be happy to carry that compared to a Ruger LCP or the original S&W Bodyguard, if I were in need of a super-portable, super-concealable firearm to hide under a formal gown or cocktail dress.
I got my first 380 recently (original LCP). I have bigger hands and it was surprisingly easy to handle and learn to hit with. I do already have a lot of experience with Makarov type pistols. A FEG PA-63 used to be my go-to carry pistol. It was partially retired in favor of a Shield 9, which I like a lot, but it is heavy for pocket carry and will pull down the gym shorts I typically wear around the house.
It’s A good compromise to keep a 9mm bullet but allow a smaller, lighter package. If size and weight didn’t matter, I’d be carrying a 12 gauge Remington 870 with 3” Brenneke black magic slugs. Just in case you needed to dispatch a rabid, drug addled walrus.
It’s A good compromise to keep a 9mm bullet but allow a smaller, lighter package. If size and weight didn’t matter, I’d be carrying a 12 gauge Remington 870 with 3” Brenneke black magic slugs. Just in case you needed to dispatch a rabid, drug addled walrus.
KevininPa
Member
I'm still waiting for the .380 S&W Equalizer. I can still handle 9mm. Just buying for the future. Old Arthur has been slowly taking parts of me.
