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MY AR is Having ALOT of trouble! --HELP Please!--

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by MoDerN_WarRioR, Apr 17, 2010.

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  1. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Let me suggest that worn out gas rings are the problem.

    You should have to pull the bolt away from the carrier. If the resistance is neglible, your gas rings are worn.
     
  2. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    Until the OP comes back and tells us exactly what condition it was in when it "misfed" we are all speculating......more details and we can narrow this down...
     
  3. hoodfu

    hoodfu Member

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    I had pretty much the exact same issues with a bushmaster. it eventually got sent back to them after everyone and their mother suggested things that didn't work on the message boards. :) they replaced the gas key, the gas rings (2 had cracks in them they said) and the buffer. Works like a champ ever since. Same ramp round slam stuff, same hot and cold workability, M193 always worked, but various other rounds would be hotter or colder burning so they'd give me less reliable cycling. Wolf was the worst because it's noticeably under powered.
     
  4. APIT50

    APIT50 Member

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    Need more info....
    That said, are you using the same magazine on the 3rd each time. You say happens after 60 rnds. Could be a mag issue proly not though. I would try practically soaking it in CLP. If it is something like a bad buffer spring that might prevent it and then you could replace the spring.
    I've seen some QC issues lately from DPMS. I've got a buddy with one that was ripping extractors through the case rim rather than extracting the empty. Turns out the chamber never saw a finishing reamer and had nice rough tool marks in it.
     
  5. MarineOne

    MarineOne Member

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    While there isn't much to go on, I'm going to say it's either a magazine going/gone bad, or the magazine catch needs to be tightened. When I bought my Bushmaster new I had a similar problem with both brand new and used mags, and I could get maybe 2 or 3 rounds fired before it would happen. It would also gouge the top round in the magazine from where the bolt lug slid across the cartridge in it's failed attempt to extract it from the mag.

    Push the mag release button in until it's flush (or a bit further) and spin the mag catch on the opposite side of the lower clockwise 1 turn and try it again. I bet this might fix your problem.



    -K
     
  6. MoDerN_WarRioR

    MoDerN_WarRioR Member

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    Here we go guys! First of all, thank you to everyone who has taken their time to post on here and give me feedback! There are a few things i noticed, found out, and did.

    I took everyone's posts into consideration and did all i could to for now. I tightened my magazine catch. I inspected the gas key, the gas block, the gas rings, and the bolt and carrier. And i was very surprised to see what i saw! I do in fact think i am having major Gas issues. First a few answers to answer some of everyone's questions then... PICTURES!! YaY!

    Jeremy2171 Asked:

    Round fully chambered and you pulled the trigger and nothing happened?

    A: NO. If there is a bullet in the chamber the gun will fire the bullet. (Not a trigger issue or firing issue.)

    Round fully chambered and you pulled the trigger and it went "click"?

    A: NO. The rounds some times dont even make it to the chamber as if the bolt is short stroking. (Some times it slides right over the brass and doesnt pick up the round.)

    Round not fully chambered, bolt partially open?

    A: YES. This happened quite often. Some times the round would get like smashed between the bolt and the chamber.

    Bolt closed on empty chamber and trigger went click?

    A: YES. If i do not have a round in the chamber and i pull the charging handle and cock the gun, if i pull the trigger (Dryfire) the gun it does click.

    NOW, to answer the Buffer spring question:
    A: I measured the buffer spring, it is 10 13/16" long uncompressed.

    Also, the gas tube does NOT have any cracks on it but i did notice alot of carbon deposit around the backside of the Gas Block (see pictures below). And for the people who must know... i do run my gun very wet. I have tried dry and it is much better wetter.

    Here is the BIG BIG BBIIIGGG Discovery i made tonight while i was tearing apart the bolt and carrier. IT appears that I do have a BAD gas ring! It looks like 2 of the rings are fine but one of them (the front ring) is broken and is missing a HUGE chunk out of it! I would almost bet this is the root of most of my problems! I have taken many pictures to show all of the key elements that could be part of the issue. PLEASE SEE BELOW:

    Here is my Bolt and Carrier:
    BoltCarrier.jpg

    Here is the Gas key:
    GasKey1.jpg

    The Bolt:
    Bolt1.jpg

    The Broken gas ring:
    Bolt2.jpg
    GasRings1.jpg
    Bolt3.jpg

    The feed ramp and gas tube:
    FeedRamp.jpg

    The gas block:
    GasBlock.jpg

    The front of the bolt:
    Topofbolt.jpg

    Thats all the pictures i have for now. If anyone need more information just let me know or have any more suggestions i would greatly appreciate them! ALSO i am going to need to know how i can get a new set of gas rings and if it is something i would be able to do myself and how or Not. What should i do about the Gas Block with the carbon shooting out the back side of it? Thanks guys!!

    --Chris
     
  7. Canuck-IL

    Canuck-IL Member

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  8. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    Good info and answers!

    Buffer spring should be 10.5 to 10.75" long so your might be a tad too strong. You didn't mention if your buffer was marked with an H, H2 or H3..they are different weights with the H3 being the heaviest.

    Gas block, possibly you getting some excess blow by there. IT does cause me some concern..(edit) after more looking around the gas block I REALLY thinking that is most of your trouble. There is gas leakage ALL around the block..if it was just at the top thats not too big a deal...however yous shows around the whole circumference and it leads me to believe the block is loose on the barrel. It appears it's held on by setscrews...see if you tighten them up any. Otherwise the block is possibly oversize to the barrel diameter and it "should" be a snug fit with only the setscrews keeping it from sliding/rotating...

    Gas rings..yes one is chipped but an AR can and should be able to run on 1 good ring.

    Do this...take the bolt carrier (assembled) and pull the bolt all the way out. Then stand the carrier ON the bolt and see if the carrier "falls" onto the bolt. The bolt/boltrings should be tight enough to support the weight of the carrier. If not then a new set of rings are needed.

    Warranty?? Unsure how old it is but if the gas block is bad and the rings are bad I'd call DPMS and see what they say...if the warranty is NOT an option let us know and then we do a little more drastic work to it! :D
     
  9. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    You need new gas rings at a minimum. According to the military, the acceptable range of length for a carbine buffer spring is 10 1/16 inches (25.56 cm)
    minimum to 11 1/4 inches (28.58 cm) maximum. So you are within 1/8" of the minimum measurement and probably close to the end of the service life for that part.

    Considering how cheap both parts are, I would probably replace all of the gas rings and the buffer spring.

    Actually, Crane has already done this test and compared a wet AR to a bone dry AR in a dust environment (as well as several other dry and wet lubes). The wet lubes beat the dry lubes every time (and a bone dry M16 did well; but not as good as CLP).

    The problem the study found with no lube (and many thicker or dry lubes) is that the sand sticks and doesn't move. So the rifle runs fine as long as the sand doesn't end up in some place critical. When the sand gets in someplace critical the rifle stops. CLP will attract more sand and make a nasty carbon mess; but it allows the fouling to migrate out of critical areas by suspending it.

    I've posted that study here before in the archives if you would like to check it out. Also, the Army has done two subsequent dust tests with the same results.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2010
  10. Evenflo76

    Evenflo76 Member

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    Sorry to hear your having trouble. What is your round count? and how often do you clean the bolt?

    Also, did you remove the gas block at any time?
     
  11. MoDerN_WarRioR

    MoDerN_WarRioR Member

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    Hey guys, so i am going to buy some new rings and probably a buffer and spring. I tried finding a marking on the buffer to see how Heavy it is but, it is totally unmarked. No letters or numbers on the actual buffer that i could see.

    For the record, i would say my round count is some where between 1500-2500 rounds or so. And after ever outing i do clean the bolt and carrier. I would have noticed a huge chip off the ring on my last cleaning so i would be willing to say that ring broke while i was out shooting this weekend. Which it probably did after those first few mags and that would explain why all of a sudden my gun started crapping out on me! BUT im a little worried that the rings might not be the source to the problem with what some people are saying on here about how the gun can run just fine on one gas ring! Is this true? Im going to replace them either way because i hate having a broken part on my gun... but do you guys think this will cure some of the trouble? Like i was saying, it was shooting fine for the first 60ish rounds.

    And as for the gas block... ya i have never touched that thing. I have been wanting to remove it to install a new AR15 Iron front sight-gas block. So if there is a crack in the gas tube there or it is not seated on the gas tube 100% this could be what is causing alot of energy loss and i dont even know about it. As for the warranty for the gun, its expired. No more warranty.

    Thanks!
    --Chris
     
  12. Evenflo76

    Evenflo76 Member

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  13. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    The gas rings aren't helping you; but the rifle should run with one GOOD gas ring. However, one question here is if the other gas rings are really in much better condition than the bad one.

    By the way, I was incorrect about the buffer spring length. I had read your earlier post as 10 3/16" instead of 10 13/16". You are actually well within a good operating range for the buffer spring.

    Having said that, I suspect that there is something more than just the gas rings here. Maybe a combination of leakage around the gas block and bad gas rings?
     
  14. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    .


    Sometimes things just don't work as they should. :D

    Fix the known problems first. So replace your gas rings, we know they are bad.
     
  15. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    Did you do this test?

    "Do this...take the bolt carrier (assembled) and pull the bolt all the way out. Then stand the carrier ON the bolt and see if the carrier "falls" onto the bolt. The bolt/boltrings should be tight enough to support the weight of the carrier. If not then a new set of rings are needed."

    Even with that little chip missing this will tell you if they are still worn or are they good enough to get a good gas seal...

    Did you check to see if the gas block was loose at all?? Even with the two screws loose it "should" be snug on the barrel....
     
  16. jem375

    jem375 Member

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    if all else fails, contact DPMS and let them know the trouble and I am sure they can tell you the problem.... check their website and call them...
     
  17. MoDerN_WarRioR

    MoDerN_WarRioR Member

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    Haha i tried the bolt test. Either i got a really lubed carrier or the rings are bad, i tried setting it on the end of the bolt and as i start to let go of the carrier, i couldnt take my fingers completly off with out the carrier falling down onto the bolt. If this test is true, its very bad. New rings will be the first!

    Now, on the new rings matter, im sure there are different opinions on this but should i go with the 3 seperate rings or get the single one piece gas ring from midway? There are great reviews on the 1 piece and non on the 3 seperate rings.

    Thanks!
    --Chris
     
  18. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    The 3 pc has been fine for almost 50 years now....the 1-pc is a gimmick item that does the same thing no worse or better than the 3-rings.

    I only use 3-pc rings... JMHO..


    But I think we've found part of the problem...get new rings and try it again.

    Did you check to see if the gas block itself had any play in it?
     
  19. MoDerN_WarRioR

    MoDerN_WarRioR Member

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    I actually just took the gas block off to inspect all around it. Before i did that, no it had no play to it. I took pictures of everything, all i really found was alot of carbon deposit around the holes where the air flows. So i cleaned everything off with solvent and made sure i tightened everything really good.

    I will post pictures of what i saw in just a few minutes.

    Thanks!
    --Chris
     
  20. MoDerN_WarRioR

    MoDerN_WarRioR Member

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    Here are the pics i took of the gas block and gas tube inspection.

    Bottom of the barrel where the set screws tighten the gas block: (notice the rust color... im not sure what that's about.)
    Noblock2.jpg

    Top of the barrel where the gas port hole is:
    Noblock1.jpg

    Gas tube pictures: (the end that goes into the gas block)
    Gastube3.jpg

    Gastube2.jpg

    Gastube1.jpg

    The gas block: (view of the gas port hole & the bottom)
    GasBlock3.jpg

    GasBlock2.jpg

    Sooo... i didn't see any major damage, just alot of carbon which tells me there is alot of gas leaking. If anyone knows how to maybe seal this area up more and keep the gas flowing through the holes and into the tube, that would be very helpful! Im still really thinking about buying a new gas block-iron sight, so what ever i do now to fix it i could have to do again later with the new block.

    If anyone sees anything that is totally out of the norm, feel free to spit out your ideas! i wanna get this thing up and running for the weekend! Hey, whats a good easy way to put on the new gas rings if i where to buy the 3 piece set? I know the single kind of works like a key ring, you just twist it all the way on.

    Thanks!
    --Chris
     
  21. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    It is rust. Probably from the minor corrosion of the rear set screw.

    There is usually going to be some minor amount of gas leakage around the gas tube/gas block interface. Eventually the carbon buildup will seal it up pretty good. If you are seeing carbon building up on the actual gas block itself (or surrounding parts like the handguard cap), that tends to be the type of leakage that accompanies function issues.

    It looks to me like the gas block is usable, although since you've got it apart, you might want to think about replacing any parts - either because they look worn or because you just want to change that part. I'd give the rear set screw and the gas tube a quick once over before I reinstalled them - basically just making sure the gas tube still is unobstructed on the inside and that any corrosion on the set screw isn't severe. I'd also add a dab of CLP to that location as part of my maintenance procedure in the future.
     
  22. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    IMHO you need a tighter fitting gas block..I have the YHM block on one of mine and it was a perfect fit...the gas block was just tight enough that it had to be gently tapped on and would not rotate/wiggle or anything and I have almost zero gas leak from around it. Your block again IMHO is leaking too much for reliable operation.


    You could clean everything and then take a micrometer and measure the barrel and the block and see if they match up. It could be there is just a ten thousandth or so difference allowing the gas to escape.

    The 3-pc rings go on easy..just like the 1-pc. Hook an end in then just rotate the bolt while popping the ring into the groove. DO this 3 times! :D
     
  23. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    Sounds like you had an easy time getting the gas block off.

    I haven't heard to many Ar owners talk about getting the gas block off with out mentioning pain, huge hammers, vise, blood, much screaming of obsenities, Ford f350 with a Warn winch, dynamite, blow torch, thermo nuclear charged plasma cutter.....etc.etc......

    If that thing just slid off its probally too loose. That carbon blowout on the handgards is scary looking. Maybe its time for that new gas block.
     
  24. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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  25. MoDerN_WarRioR

    MoDerN_WarRioR Member

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    Ya i didn't use any tools except an Allen wrench, a hammer and a punch to pop the pin out. As soon as i took the pin out i wiggled it right and left till it came off! Needless to say it wasn't on there very tight. And that explains alot with the lack of energy to push the bolt back all the way! I thought this was all pretty normal stuff, i would say its been doin this probably the entire time i have owned it! I cant wait to shoot it at its fullest potential! :)

    Soo, in my original post i mentioned the "burr" or something sharp that is preventing the buffer spring to give enough pressure to push the round up into the chamber. Is this a buffer problem or do you think i should work on this problem next after the energy prob. if it is still an issue? I wouldn't really worry about it much except for the fact that when i feel the bullet after i eject it, it has a sharp cut on it that protrudes out. I have no idea if that would cause damage to the inside of the barrel over time or not but im pretty dang sure its affecting the accuracy considering there is a gash on the side of the bullet flying through the air. What do you all think??

    Thanks!
    --Chris
     
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