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My attempt at rolling own prints

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by greyling22, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    So rolling your own prints is hard. After several attempts, this is my best. The right thumb is not quite as dark in real life. You can see some detail.

    But, those of you who know fingerprints, do you think they are good enough to submit for my form 4? Or am I going to need to go pay somebody for the swanky new digital ones?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  2. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Unless something has changed, they won't accept a card you did yourself. Think about it; could be anyone's prints, why would they just take your word for it?

    Most Sheriff's offices or police departments do them for a minimal charge. I think it was $10 here.
     
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  3. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    my reading from multiple sources on the internet indicates you can roll your own, and while that makes not sense, it does keep with the whole NFA thing being riddled with things that make no sense.
     
  4. Mauser lover

    Mauser lover Member

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    My sheriff's office didn't charge at all...
     
  5. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Personally, I would delete that post if I were the OP.
    Just a suggestion.....
     
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  6. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    Exactly what I thought as soon as I saw it.
     
  7. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Why in the world would you post your finger prints on the internet?

    Also, I doubt that you can "roll your own". My experience is that it always has to be done by a certifying authority.
     
  8. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Her in Texas you go to the Driver's License office (which are run by DPS, the Department of Public Safety), and they are $5, IIRC.
     
  9. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Couldn’t be any worse than posting your social, address and bank account number.

    I agree though, if “we” could do it on our “honor” there would be no need to do them at all. Same reason more gun laws don’t stop crime, if your going to break the law, well your not following it,
     
  10. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    enh, I can't seem to get a good set. I'll just change my trust to include fewer people and pay to get a set for both of us. I'll just add them back after approval. I was trying to get my wife to be my 2nd, but I got enough resistance that I will never get her to a fingerprint outfit. I'll use my dad instead. as far as posting prints, A) they're garbage and B) prints with no identifiers don't mean much. you could do as good or better stealing a used glass from chili's. But I can take them down. it's no big deal to me.
     
  11. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I think that’s why you can’t do them yourself.
     
  12. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Sure they will. 41F states that "anyone properly equipped" can take the fingerprints. In fact, Silencer shop has several hundred fingerprint scanner kiosks at gun dealers all around the country for that very purpose. (I have one in my dining room to hide the crack in my wall)



    One, because its not required to have your identity verified before being fingerprinted.
    Two, because .gov loves databases.
    Three, because the FBI will check the prints submitted against other fingerprint records. If they don't match, your form gets kicked back.
     
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  13. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Yet ATF says otherwise.;)
     
  14. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Seems like they should just go by the ones they already have at that point.
     
  15. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Every Form 1 and Form 4 submission requires its own set of fingerprint cards. If you submit four Form 4's today, you also submit four sets of fingerprint cards.

    Thems the rules.
     
  16. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    What he said. Anyone "properly equipped" can do them. In fact you can order the fingerprint cards right from the ATF/FBI's website (can't remember when I ordered, think FBI?) for free. They even have a pretty detailed How To on doing your own fingerprints.

    Yes it makes the process 'vulnerable' but getting fingerprinted, paying a bribe and waiting 10 months to put a shorter barrel on a rifle you already own doesn't make sense either. Its sad we can make a human being in less time it takes for our government to grant us the privilege to put a different piece of plastic on the back of our own property.
     
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  17. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    As others have pointed out, you are able to roll your own prints. It does not make sense since there are no checks and balances to ensure that the fingerprints on the card actually are the submitter's prints.

    That said, the entire NFA process is asinine. In this day and age, the ATF cannot tell me that there is no way to have a system to maintain prints and information so that we don't have to go through the rope-a-dope submission process every time we want an NFA item. It should be a simple computer system that has my name, social, what ever other info the government needs, and a "YES" or "NO" denoting whether I'm prohibited from buying an NFA item. Submit all the nonsense one time and be done with it. From that point on, I should be able to go into my gun shop, buy an item and the dealer should be able to confirm my identity, enter my social or driver's license and see my name with a "YES" or "NO".
     
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  18. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    I've submitted my own prints several times with no issue.
     
  19. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Or if the photo on your application is the actual applicant/responsible person.
    The FBI will check the prints submitted against other fingerprint records. If they don't match, your form gets kicked back. Why do you think there is a need for "checks and balances"?

    You really want a database maintained by the ATF? I don't.



    Except that's not ATF's decision. Congress dictates what NFA law is. And in 1934 they didn't even have iPhones.
     
  20. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    Where did I say that I "think there is a need for 'checks and balances'"? I did not say there is a need to have checks and balances nor do I want checks and balances. My statement highlighted that it was counterintuitive that there was not a requirement to have a police officer or other government agency/official take the prints to ensure that the prints belonged to the person who is listed on the fingerprint form. It is rare that any business or government entity requiring fingerprints does not have certification when the prints are taken.

    With respect to your comment about the forms getting kicked back if the prints do not match other fingerprint records, I am very curious about what happens if I have never been fingerprinted before and am now rolling my own fingerprints to obtain an NFA item. Does that mean that I will never be able to obtain an NFA item since there are no other prints that the FBI can match?

    I certainly hope that one of your takeaways from my post was not that I want a database maintained by the ATF. The point was that we have the technology that can instantly tell someone whether a person is eligible to own an NFA item. Instead, we have to go through the paperwork drill every time we make an NFA purchase. I would love for the only time spent waiting on an NFA item to be an NFA dealer to be able to punch in my driver's license number and getting a simple "YES" or "NO" telling him whether I can go home with the item. I welcome your suggestions on how to expedite the NFA process.

    Can you expand upon what you claim is "not ATF's decision"? Also, if you think that Congress "dictates what NFA law is" or any other law, then you have a very poor understanding of the legislative system. The signed laws dictate what the laws are. Congress has the ability to propose legislation which, if it makes its way through the red tape, may change NFA laws, but in no way does Congress "dictate what the NFA law is." While the ATF does not make laws, it has the power to create rules, issues opinion letters, and implement policies that are enforceable and criminally punishable. If you think the ATF is powerless or lacks the authority to in make decisions pertaining to NFA law, you are extremely ignorant. Yes, you are correct in that the ATF cannot just create or dismiss NFA laws, but the implementation and processes associated with NFA law (which is what my post spoke to) is heavily determined by the ATF. If you want to question that, go and read 41F and tell me if you think the ATF has the ability to streamline or impede the NFA approval process.

    You are 100% correct that that people did not have iPhones in 1934! :what:
     
  21. SamT1

    SamT1 Member

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    Will they really reject bad prints? I’ve seen some trusts they accept that are serious hack jobs. I doubt they look over the prints any harder.
     
  22. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    If you don't see it as a need or an issue why bring it up?



    That's because THE LAW may require such. In this case, ATF does not currently require LE to perform the fingerprinting.



    Really?:scrutiny:
    The fingerprint requirement is to see if the applicant/RP IS on file as a prohibited person. If you have been previously fingerprinted for employment, an arrest, drivers license, LTC/CHL/CCW, teacher certificate, whatever, the check compares the prints submitted with your Form 1/4 vs what is already on file with your name.....if they don't match then you are likely to be denied. If you have never been fingerprinted then its pretty likely your prints won't match to those of a prohibited person.;) (unless they have your fingerprints from a crime scene and been wondering when you would slip up)



    The USA also put a man on the moon, but that doesn't mean Congress is going to give ATF the budget to improve its IT systems. Processing NFA applications isn't likely to very high on any Congressman's Top Ten List. Yeah, I know the FBI NICS can tell me in under two minutes if a Title I firearm buyer is prohibited or not...….but the National Firearms Act has different requirements for Title II firearms.




    Obviously. Do you think I enjoyed having to buy three safes to store NFA firearms? You aren't describing anything that the firearm community has been talking about since 1934.


    Elect people who are genuine supporters of the Second Amendment to office. Nothing else will work better.



    Congress passed the National Firearms Act, not a government agency.



    Wow.
    Congress enacts legislation, ie DICTATES the law. Get it?



    Who do you think passes laws and who signs them into law? o_O




    No kidding? ATF doesn't make the laws they enforce? Then who does?
    Why, just a few lines above you state that Congress doesn't do it. :rofl:



    I never said anything of the sort, but try harder.



    Good grief.
    ATF can only implement administrative regulations THAT COMPLY with the underlying Federal law. That's why we have a Code of Federal Regulations. To change one of those regulations, ATF must publish the proposed change in the Federal Register with a timeline. That allows time for public comment, scrutiny by Congress and even intervention by the courts. If the regulation violates the enabling legislation then it usually is withdrawn pretty quick or leads to litigation.....such as Thompson Center.

    I have no doubt that ATF (or any other government agency) would absolutely love new computers, more staff, etc...…….but ATF doesn't make that decision. Once again, CONGRESS DOES. While agencies can request funds (and ATF has) ultimately it's Congress and the President that approves the budget. And reducing NFA wait times isn't that high of a priority.
     
  23. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    for whatever it's worth, I paid the police dept $10/card for my prints. Then when I turned in the paperwork to CLEO (sheriff) the lady at the front desk said they did prints for free. if only somebody there had told me that the 5 times I called to see if they would do prints..... Instead I got bumped from voicemail to voicemail.
     
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