My cast pc'ed bullets shot like crap, need help!

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AR-Bossman

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So I went out to no man's land all excited to try my new cast bullets that I also powder coated. They are the Lee 125-2R and 124-TC.
10 yard distance, 12x12 paper target little cross wind. Magnetospeed. Hand rested on a table top.
So the 125's (129-130 as cast) clocked in at 1139 max, 1114 Average. They held a 5x3"strip with a couple flyers. 18 rounds shot
The 124 (129 as cast)'s clocked in at 1151 max, 1131 Average. All shots were within a 12x7 area with keyholing on at least 3/18
So I put them through my 16" carbine @ 50Y. So that opened up the 125's (1317 max, 1286 Average )more and the 124's (1334 max, 1283 average) were a total joke. On the 124's, 6/29 hit the target.
I used a minimal crimp. This was 4.7 grains of WSF. The lead was range scrap base from local seller who melted it down. Very initial BHN after casting was around 9 using a lee checker. I haven't checked if they got any harder.
Is it possible none of my guns like these bullets and I should just sell off the molds and try a few others? I did find some other posts by people saying they had key-holing issues with the 124-tc so I know it's not just me. I'm at a loss right now.
By the way, I tested some PC'd 124's a local dealer made and they shot really well. Well enough if mine shot that good I'd be very very excited.
 
4.7 WSF should produce a good load I use a Lee 356-120-TC with 4.8g WSF and get 1170 out of a 4.25" M&P 9 and 1168 out of a 5" Beretta 92fs (has a slightly wider bore which probably offsets the longer barrel). No keyholing and perfect accuracy at 10 yards. I can break clay pigeons at 50 yards with a lucky shot. The misses hit right next to the clays so it's accurate enough to make it me and not the load or gun.

I use reclaimed lead shot and PC with HF red. The bullets drop at about .357"-.358" and after coating, 0.360". I size them with the Lee push through sizer to 0.356"

You don't say what your dropped diameter was, the PC'ed diameter or whether you resized them. Hopefully you don't use the Lee FCD. You might be surprised to find that the bullets can be pulled out with your fingers if you do and at best you might be able to spin the bullet if you have a crimp on the case mouth.
 
4.7 WSF should produce a good load I use a Lee 356-120-TC with 4.8g WSF and get 1170 out of a 4.25" M&P 9 and 1168 out of a 5" Beretta 92fs (has a slightly wider bore which probably offsets the longer barrel). No keyholing and perfect accuracy at 10 yards. I can break clay pigeons at 50 yards with a lucky shot. The misses hit right next to the clays so it's accurate enough to make it me and not the load or gun.

I use reclaimed lead shot and PC with HF red. The bullets drop at about .357"-.358" and after coating, 0.360". I size them with the Lee push through sizer to 0.356"

You don't say what your dropped diameter was, the PC'ed diameter or whether you resized them. Hopefully you don't use the Lee FCD. You might be surprised to find that the bullets can be pulled out with your fingers if you do and at best you might be able to spin the bullet if you have a crimp on the case mouth.

You've got some great info up there. Ok so you are giving your support to the 120-TC. I've got the next 3 molds on my wish list and I may pull the trigger tonight.

Mine drop .358'ish, then powder coat, then size with the lee .356. I have to use the FCD or they won't even fit in anything I have. I didn't notice any problem with bullet looseness and the other 124 pc'd bullets I bought shoot great going through the FCD. I crimp just to get rid of the belling and that's about it. No actual indentation into the bullet itself.

I've found ALOT of info with people saying the 124-TC is a POS. Wish I had done my research better.
 
I don’t see any mention of sizing. Did you size them, and if so, what diameter did you size them to.

It DOES matter..
 
The 120 TC works great for me in the M&P full size, Shield, Beretta 92fs and XD9. I also bought a 6 cavity TL-356-124-2R for variety and it also shoots great in all the above guns. I feel sorry that those who don't like it aren't capable of making it shoot well but 9mm is a caliber that has a huge variation in throat, leade and groove dimensions and some goofy guns may not be able to shoot them properly. For instance a gun with a super short or narrow throat with a wide (0.357-.358" groove) might be a failure unless the throat is reamed. Then fat 0.360" bullets may work. Most US built guns come out new with 0.355-0.356" grooves and you need a bullet sized on the narrower end. Of course 0.355" jacketed and plated bullets work because they don't have to obturate the grooves, just engrave the lands. PC bullets are more tolerant of being a little narrow because the polymer might get gas cut but it doesn't result in leading. It simply deposits soot in the grooves which could easily be cleaned out with a swab and any cleaner.

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124 TL, or just 120gr TC?

I’ve had problems with the TL SWC. Casts under sized, and front and rear driving bands are too small... (narrow).
I’ve tied National records with the conventional 120TC. (Perfect score).
 
124 TL, or just 120gr TC?

I’ve had problems with the TL SWC. Casts under sized, and front and rear driving bands are too small... (narrow).
I’ve tied National records with the conventional 120TC. (Perfect score).
So you are giving a second thumbs up for the 356-120-tc? I'm will also order a .358 sizer as well once I decide on what to get. That way I can test a .356 and .358 sizing to see if one is better.
Seeing some good info on the 358-125-RF as well. Seems the Tumble Lube stuff is not getting alot of great feedback.
 
I have to use the FCD or they won't even fit in anything I have.
If your lead is only 9 BHN, and your using a FCD, and sizing to .356, and your keyholing my guess is the FCD is sizing those soft bullets down. Back off that FCD if you are using it or try to not use it at all with those soft bullets.
 
Be sure your alloy is adequate. I use 95/5 tin/antimony solder added to improve fill and hardness. Also, I size .357” and lube with SPG lube.

I also have used powder coat, but can’t attest if accuracy is as good. Will have to shoot more PC to determine if accuracy is as good.

I also use LFCD that is a custom order .003 Oversized to prevent sizing the bullet in the case. Just enough to true the bullet to case neck...
 
If you have to use the FCD to get them to fit a larger sizer won't do you any good IMO
I like and use the FCD but it will resize soft lead bullets if adjusted down to much and can resize them even if you don't have it cranked down a bunch.

For fun measure some before, load a couple in sized dummy cases crimp as you have been then pull the bullet and remeasure.
The results maybe your answer. (or may not)

By the way, I tested some PC'd 124's a local dealer made and they shot really well.
Curious what BHN were they?
 
If your lead is only 9 BHN, and your using a FCD, and sizing to .356, and your keyholing my guess is the FCD is sizing those soft bullets down. Back off that FCD if you are using it or try to not use it at all with those soft bullets.

I pulled the ones I didn't use and there is no hint that they got squished or sized further down. They still measure .356 but that don't mean it will work with a .358 sizer.

If you have to use the FCD to get them to fit a larger sizer won't do you any good IMO
I like and use the FCD but it will resize soft lead bullets if adjusted down to much and can resize them even if you don't have it cranked down a bunch.

For fun measure some before, load a couple in sized dummy cases crimp as you have been then pull the bullet and remeasure.
The results maybe your answer. (or may not)


Curious what BHN were they?

I did a quick test and it appears his are around 17.9 and mine have hardened a bit to 11. I didn't water drop mine and that is one thing I will try along with maybe a heat treatment to get them harder. Also may get my hands on some rototype to mix in.

Alot of people are having trouble with the tumble lube molds and 9mm. I ordered 3 more molds and a .358 sizer. If these don't give me what I want I found a mold maker who makes powder coat specific bullet molds, but alot more money. I wish LEE was more up to date instead of having to use all these bullets designed for out dated lube.
 
I've found ALOT of info with people saying the 124-TC is a POS. Wish I had done my research better.

Add me to the list... I don't use a FCD, didn't even size the bullets (used as cast tumble lubed), and even when water quenched I still got keyholes. Worst cases as I remember were CBC, which I don't like for any cast bullet. Was able to exchange with Lee, and got the 356-125-2R and it's like night and day. I size them .358" for my 9mm's (all slug just a touch over .357"), and have even used unsized running around .359". Have shot sub 1" 15 yard groups, and a real pistolero I'm sure could put them in one hole... Amazingly accurate, they look great loaded, and of course feed like hardball.

Here they are, and the most accurate load data I used with them.

Walther P1 - 4.7 grains Unique - Lee 125 .358” not quenched - CCI SPP - Heavy LLA+JPW lube
1072, 1075, 1090, 1077, avg 1078 ES 18 SD 7 Extremely accurate .872 CTC 5 shots



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P1_Lee_2R.jpg
 
@Galil5.56 Very Very impressive!!! Do you remember your COAL? I was at 1.098. I will size them with the .358 when it gets here and give them another try. Maybe over 1100 FPS is also a bad thing. Have you run them any hotter?
 
The Lee TC TL bulllet is a dog. The only way I could get them to shoot in anything was to water drop them so they were really hard. Before that they were so bad they were going through the target sideways at 25 yards. Powder coating can’t fix that.

Try quenching them and see if that helps. Of course then you can’t PC them or you’ll soften them up again. I was tumble lubing so it wasn’t an issue.
 
Thanks AR-Bossman.

I think the OAL for these 125 grain Lee 2R RN were 1.150"... Can't find a dummy, I'm sure is somewhere around here. I found these bullets to work just fine when pushed to full power for plinking, at least that I remember.

Sized .358" unless noted otherwise, using straight wheel weights. Used them water quenched/not quenched and played around with lube mixes of LLA and Johnsons paste wax. Here is what I found in my chronograph logs. I hope you can get something that works well for you. Good luck.

Beretta M9 - 5 gr Unique - Lee 125 RN - WW SPP
1110, 1141, 1156, 1133, 1141 av 1136 es 46 sd 16

Beretta M9 - 5.5 grains Unique - Lee 125 sized .357” - WW SPP
1215, 1206, 1212, 1187, 1192, AV 1202 ES 28 sd 12

Beretta M9 - 5.2 Power Pistol - Lee 125 RN - WW SPP
1090, 1087, 1083, 1093, 1100 av 1090 es 17 sd 6

Beretta M9 - 6 grains Power Pistol - 125 Lee RN sized .357” - WW SPP
1213, 1216, 1238, 1238, 1201, AV 1221 ES 37 sd 16

Beretta M9 - 4.4 grains Bullseye - Lee 125 .358” W. quenched JPW lube - CCI SPP
1101, 1103, 1071, 1082, 1128, AVG 1097 ES 57 SD 21

Beretta M9 - 3.7 grains Solo 1000 - WW SPP Lee 125 RN sized .358”
1005, 1014, 1011, 1013, 1010, AV 1010 ES 9 SD 3

Walther P1 - 3.9 grains 700x - Lee 125 .358” not quenched - CCI SPP Heavy LLA+JPW lube
1023, 1049, 1040, Avg 1037 ES 26 SD 13. Second string Avg 1041 ES 14 SD 5

Beretta M9 - 4 grains Red Dot - WW SPP - Lee 125 gr LRN sized .358”
1092, 1064, 1049, 1079 Av 1074 ES 43 SD17

*** Off book self developed data that was safe for me/my firearms... For illustrative purposes ONLY***

Beretta M9 - 3.7 Int Clays - WW SPP - Lee 125 RN .358” water quenched
1064,1036, 1040, 1049, 1040, AV 1045 ES 28 SD 11

Beretta M9 - 4.0 grains International Clays - Lee 125 .358” - CCI 500
1124, 1118, 1138, 1137, 1126, AVG 1128 ES 20 SD

Beretta M9 - 4.2 grains International Clays - Lee 125 sized .358” - CCI 500
1135, 1132, 1124, 1125, 1151, AV 1133 ES 27 sd 10

Beretta M9 - 4.5 grains International Clays - Lee 125 sized .358” - CCI 500
1183, 1193, 1186, 1186, 1184, AV 1186 ES 10 sd 3
 
I pulled the ones I didn't use and there is no hint that they got squished or sized further down. They still measure .356 but that don't mean it will work with a .358 sizer.



I did a quick test and it appears his are around 17.9 and mine have hardened a bit to 11. I didn't water drop mine and that is one thing I will try along with maybe a heat treatment to get them harder. Also may get my hands on some rototype to mix in.

Alot of people are having trouble with the tumble lube molds and 9mm. I ordered 3 more molds and a .358 sizer. If these don't give me what I want I found a mold maker who makes powder coat specific bullet molds, but alot more money. I wish LEE was more up to date instead of having to use all these bullets designed for out dated lube.
 
I have shot a lot of 7-8BHN coated 9mm from 3 different lee molds 120gr TC (dropped 125gr), 125gr 2R, and through my newest 124gr 1r through several guns including two different carbines and even a G19 and never had Keyholing nor those kinds of accuracy issues. so I am as puzzled as you about the fact that it is doing it in 2 guns. What do they measure before sizing?
 
That Lee TL mold is garbage. It shoots like crap for everyone I know.

Lube isn't outdated. It's still very much alive. Alternate coating are still a small part of the hobby.

I use Hi-Tek and PC and both work just fine on conventional bullets. However I don't use Lee molds either. NOE, Arsenal, or MP are my choices or my H&G molds.

Lose the Lee carbide FCD. I load and shoot ~2000 rounds a month of 9mm and .45 ACP and I've found no need or use for the Lee carbide FCD die.
 
Lose the Lee carbide FCD. I load and shoot ~2000 rounds a month of 9mm and .45 ACP and I've found no need or use for the Lee carbide FCD die.

What method of flaring the case do you use? What is the final OD of the bullets you shoot?
 
Your velocity adds a little light on what's going on. 1131 fps average and a max of 1151 fps. With a 4 inch barrel Hodgdon lists a velocity of 1055 fps. Your pushing them too hard. The fact that they shot even worse out of you carbine, with a longer barrel and higher velocity, supports this. Now it's expected to get a different velocity that what's listed in manuals, but it's usually a lower velocity. You got almost 100 fps faster than Hodgdon. Max charge + heavier bullets + shorted COL + increased velocity = over pressure. Over pressure = blown up gun + injured shooter/bystanders.
Sometimes in life we have to stop progress and take a few steps back so we can re-examine a problem to come to a solution.

1. Get rid of the TL style mold. It is a pain for even low pressure 45 acp and 38 special. They have very narrow driving bands and are easily stripped in the rifling, hence the keyholing. You can tumble lube regular lube groove bullets. And they also powder coat better for me.

2. .357 is my min diameter for 9mm but some of my guns will chamber .359 easily. I have settled on .358 for my normal size for 9mm.

3. A larger bullet will require an expander up for the challenge. If you plan to do much casting start looking at the Lyman style expander. NOE also makes expanders that are based on the Lee universal flare tool. He have more sizes available than Lyman. This tool, as it comes from Lee, only flares the case mouth. You need one that creates a step in the case such as Lyman or NOE.

4. Don't measure bullets with a pair of calipers. You will need a micrometer for this task.

5. Ditch the FCD. You can get a regular taper crimp die so you can seat and crimp in separate steps. The carbide ring in the FCD can be knocked out, but you lose the post sizing ability it offers.

6. Let your cast bullets age for a week or so before you load them. Most alloys will harden a little over time.

7. Always work your load up from start load. Your 4.7 load is hodgdons max load for a 124 grain. You didn't mention other velocities or loads, so it sound like you loaded them at max and went shooting. Don't forget you have to add the weight of powder coat for the total projectile weight. With range scrap, mostly lead from my experience, your likely already pushing a little over 125 grain without the coating. Hodgdon uses a 1.169 COL. I have the 125 2r mold from Lee and I doubt that most any gun would chamber them at 1.169 even without the added diameter of powder coat.
 
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1. Mold will be sold
2. I have a .358 sizer coming
3. I have the 9mm and .38spl M dies
4. I've got a good mic I will use
5. I'll see what I can do here.. not sure till I get things actually loaded up
6. I'll give this a shot. I hate waiting.
7. I will back it off a bit and see if anything changes.
 
I have been using the 124gr TL for years with good effect in my CZ pistols. These are the round nose version; never liked the TC version. I towel drop, powder coat, and size to .356 with a Lee push through sizer. I load with Lee dies, usually over 6.5 grains off AA#7. Velocity is under 1100 FPS, as they are target loads. I load them to 1.095 COAL. I have cast, powder coat and loaded same day with no ill effect. Lead is 92/6/2 from a Doe Run secondary smelter that just happens to be right around the corner from me. ;)
The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a HUGE no-no for non jacketed bullets. Just adjust your seater to give a taper crimp per the instructions. I only use the FCD on jacketed bullets, and then not that often. Remember the fun of reloading is experiment...
 
For all you people who can't get the Lee TL bullets to shoot well in your guns, please PM me and send them to me.
I cast the Lee TL356-124-2R and shoot them just as well as the 356-120-TC's. I've shot them tumble lubed in 45/45/10 and since I started powder coating, I shoot them just as well with less smoke. I've seated them anywhere from the pic below down to where the driving band is level with the case mouth. The shorter version will work better with a barrel with no or really short throat.

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I bought my first full-size 9mm a couple of years ago, just so I could say I have one, and since I cast for all my revolvers and most of my rifles, thought I'd try the 9mm too. I'm a fan on Lyman, NOE. MP and Accurate molds, but bought a Lee 120 TC mold. I water quench mine and use the outdated, out of style lube and size .357". I was quite impressed with the accuracy and I'm sure groups would've been much smaller had I shot them from the bench.

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My 9mm and 45 ACP are ONLY taper crimped since they headspace on the mouth of the case.

Why don't you try without PC?

35W
 
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