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My CCW Class: 12 hours of unmitigated horror.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Molon Labe, Sep 25, 2005.

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  1. SalukiFan

    SalukiFan Member

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    +1 CombatArmsUSAF

    I had M9 training with the Air Force and everything was just as you stated.

    Of course you can't totally idiot-proof something - one of the guys in my class managed to shoot his guide rod halfway across the room and hit someone else with it while field-stripping his Beretta. :scrutiny:

    However, the real danger in the CCW class we are discussing is that lack of control over where the firearms are coming from, whether they are loaded, whether or not they have been checked etc. before dry-firing.

    As Chris Rock once said, "We don't need gun control, we need bullet control!" ;)
     
  2. Navy joe

    Navy joe Member

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    Pretty much any instructor demos in a CCW classroom can be done with several representative sample red guns(plastic dummies). Any student drywork should be done on the range with a safe backstop. Any instructor live demos are pointless because it devolves rapidly into the insructor showing off. The one I can think of is the instructor accurately shooting the student's gun when the gun gets blamed for not hitting paper at 7 yards. At least then the student knows who is to blame. In short, I see no reason for a functional weapon in the classroom.

    Being safe on the range and not in class as you said this guy was is inexcusable since bad habits are bred by aimless hands wantonly dryfiring.

    Being polite or scared to say something will get you killed. It is unpleasant at times to say something since many folks are not amenable to a polite correction. I have become pretty nasty on occasion but so far I haven't gotten shot or kicked off the range while I've sent a few home early. Many more I have helped learn something safe, or just fix their rifle so it wasn't shooting the lightbulbs out of the ceiling due to a loose scope. So, as you already know, say something or leave. Tough to say something where you were because you would then have tough cop man trying to make you look dumb in front of 100 people.

    A fun standard reply to folks that sweep me on the range or in the gun store and then say "But it's not loaded" is to say "Mine is!" Kinda lets them know how unhappy you are to inspect their muzzle.
     
  3. MrTuffPaws

    MrTuffPaws Member

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    I took a CCW class from a NRA instructor and I have never seen so much unsafe gun handling. It was scary.
     
  4. pax

    pax Member

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    Absolutely agree with both points. There's no reason at all for an instructor to use anything but a dummy gun inside a classroom; classrooms generally have no safe direction and thus any use of a real gun will simply be demonstrating unsafe and incorrect procedures.
    Absolutely disagree.

    To my way of thinking, for a physical skill, the ideal teaching method is to

    1) tell 'em how it's done, then
    2) show 'em how it's done, then
    3) let 'em do it themselves, correcting as necessary.

    If you eliminate step 2), a certain number of students are going to get lost along the way, making step 3) much more difficult than it needs to be.

    Instructor demos allow students to observe critical details which may be missing from the instructor's verbal explanations, or which the students incorrectly understood the first time around.

    But as you said above, there's no excuse at all to do that in the classroom. The range is the place for demo work with live guns. Other than that, dummy guns are the way to go.

    pax
     
  5. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    MrTuffPaws, the NRA doesn't need instructors like that. The NRA has very specific, very strict rules about classroom safety. If your NRA instructor violated those rules, he needs to be reported. Call 1-877-NRA-2000 and ask to speak to the training division.
     
  6. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Update:

    1. I am going to send a letter to the instructor. If the instructor cops an attitude after my email, or refuses to change his ways, rest assured I will "out" him and alert the authorities.

    2. I have been in contact with a lady who was also in the class. Not to beat a dead horse, but she told me that, when the instructor asked everyone in the class to practice "quick draws" with their (real) guns, one clueless lady inserted a loaded magazine into her gun. Another student saw her do it, and alerted the instructor.

    (I recall something going on between the instructor and a lady near the front row. But because my wife and I were in the back row, we couldn't see what was going on.)

    While it was the lady's fault that she brought the ammo in the classroom, the instructor should have anticipated something like this happening, and hence should have done one of the following:

    a. Not allowed real guns in the classroom (in addtion to ammo),

    - or -

    b. Independently checked each firearm as each student walked into the room.

    To allow each student to bring a handgun into the classroom and to not independently check each firearm is a recipe for disaster.
     
  7. SteveS

    SteveS Member

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    I am a part-time CCW instructor and agree with you on both points. The NRA training counselor that taught my instructor's course emphasized both points in the class.

    I think an instructor can do the second without firing. I guess it depends on the specific class, but I can't remember a class where the instructor shot with the students.
     
  8. Navy joe

    Navy joe Member

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    Pax,
    I agree conditionally:
    That's how I teach my wife and do other folks in one on one. However, I teach at the level I expect from them. If I want them to put six aimed shots into the bullseye at 7yds in 30 seconds, I do that. I don't think much of instructor demos in CCW classes since the classes teach lowest common denominator skills, utilizing all too often lowest common denominator instructors. If I had a nickel for every time I saw a blowhard CCW instructor, or read complaints about one on this board, I'd be rich. Heck, I'm related to one. I don't see the value in one of these dubious characters doing their dubious Jerry Miculek imitation, nor do I see the value of an instructor that has skills drawing a smiley face at 25yds on the target he expects his charges to shoot at 3yds. So, you are right, instructor demos are of value if they teach the material. Getting the instructor to play along and not be Rambo is the trick.


    CombatArmsUSAF,
    I agree, those are all good safety procedures you listed. However it is a cop-out to say dry-firing in any old direction in such a classroom setting is okay because of those procedures. Bad habits are bad habits no matter how safe you make them. What's to say your student doesn't dryfire back in his unit armory and forgets one of your stringent safety steps. I guess I just have a good SAMI at my unit, he designates a safe pointing area for dryfire, goes to pains to demonstrate that he will not sweep you, drills the four rules, has students inspect the gun/dummy ammo, etc. All students utilize the safety area when dryfiring.

    CCW and untrained military students are basic learners, many of both have the shakes just looking at a gun. They can only absorb what you give them, common sense cannot be expected at their stage of the learning curve. Every minute of class is a chance to instill a good or a bad habit. Forever.
     
  9. armedcitizen

    armedcitizen Member

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    I'm sorry to hear you had such a crappy experience. I took my class at New Albany Shooting Range ($150). We had maybe 20 students with two instructors. No personal weapons were allowed. The entire class was very controlled and very safety oriented.

    When your time to requalify comes up, you should check them out. It sounds like it would be worth the drive!

    www.nasr.com
     
  10. beaucoup ammo

    beaucoup ammo Member

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    Not To Be Flip..

    But the old "four dead in O-Hi-O" by CSN&Y came to mind as I re-read your post.

    Good God!! Our head instructor was 3 weeks back from Iraq and his 2 helpers were from the Castle Hills and San Antonio PD's. Your clown should be banned from anything even remotely concerned with the public and fire arms, let alone setting himself up as an example of responsible handgun use.

    Glad we're reading from you..rather than about you.

    Take Care
     
  11. Goet

    Goet Member

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    I have the same issues when going to the local gun store. Do I hem and haw and cringe, or do I tell the guy to forget it, I'd rather not shoot his stupid guns if he's gonna keep pointing them at my gf.
     
  12. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    I've said it before, and ill say it again.

    Being a LEO doesnt mean you know anything about guns. You still have to PROVE you know how to handle a gun regardles sof what your badge says.

    Sadly, most LEOs and Security personel failt he sommon sense rule quite misserably. :(
     
  13. TechBrute

    TechBrute Member

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    To the original poster:

    So if it was so dangerous in there, why did you not speak up or leave? The lady next to your wife REPEATEDLY swept her? And you didn't even ask her to stop?

    Congratulations. There are now 98 people in that class that think that pointing the gun at someone is OK, as long as it's "unloaded."

    I don't mean this as a direct attack, but safety is EVERYONE's responsibility. Yours as much as the instructor's.
     
  14. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Holy cow Molon Labe, is the instructor your brother-in-law or something? Why are you downplaying this so much as compared to your original post. First, it was 12 hours of unmitigated horror that you sat through and allowed to continue to happen to you instead of making a point of correcting the situation then or leaving. Then you suggest that you might offer to help the guy teach. Now we learn from you that some idiot did load up a gun during gun handling in class and that problem was stopped even though all the other unsafe handling continued for the entire class. And finally, only now are you going to write the guy a letter and depending how he responds will you decide to "out" him with the authorities.

    If the instructor terrorized you as you claimed, you and your wife, and the instructor teaches other courses, don't you think this is probably still going on? Here you are, playing the political game for some reason when this moronic instructor is continuing to conduct classes. That means others are being endangered as well.

    This really should be a no-brainer. The fact that you sat through 12 hours of unmitigated horror, you and your wife surrounded by 98 other students who were following directions and mishandling guns and the fact that it is taken you this long to decide what you should do is amazing to me. If the guy screwed up as badly as you claimed, then he should not be teaching classes. Your 12 hours of unmitigated horror translates from the instructor no longer having any common sense about guns, gun handling, and teaching gun handling.

    As Susan Powder said, "Stop the Madness!"
     
  15. Jeeper

    Jeeper Member

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    I want an update on this. This guy should not be teaching at all.
     
  16. torpid

    torpid Member

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    Susan Powder may have well said that, but Susan Powter said, "Stop the insanity!"

    (Hey, you brought up Susan...)

    :neener:
     
  17. MNseadog

    MNseadog Member

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    As an instructor I am appalled and dismayed by the conduct of the aforementioned instructor. Gives us all a bad name. My classes are conducted using real (provided by myself/partner) and replica firearms. No student is allowed to bring a firearm into the classroom. NO Ammunition allowed.

    Each time a firearm is picked up from the front table for demonstration it is brought to a student (muzzle down, action open) for verification that it is unloaded. The demonstration then proceeds with the muzzle pointed in safe direction at all times.

    Students are allowed to handle firearms at the front table only while maintaining muzzle control in the designated down range direction(s). They may work the actions as well as load and unload using dummy ammunition all under the watchful eye(s) of the instructor (s). Yes we go overboard in some people's eyes but not as far as we are concerned. These students will be next to us on the range or out in public, I want them as safe as I can make them.

    I would recommend strongly that steps should be taken to bring to light this instructor's conduct to the appropriate authority.

    Stay Safe :)
     
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