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My encounter w/DC anti-gunner

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by gbran, Apr 26, 2008.

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  1. gbran

    gbran Member

    Jan 21, 2003
    My longtime female freind and collegue met me here in CA for business purposes recently. She is a single widow with 2 pre-teen children. She is also a lawyer. During dinner the other nite, she voiced her concern that SCOTUS would probably rule RKBA to be an individual right and then kill DC's gun ban. Her concern is that DC will now have no way to keep guns out of the District.

    I told her DC didn't have a gun problem, they had a people problem in that too large a percentage of the population was prone to violence. We then had the following exchange (shortened and paraphrased);

    Me: Sarah, if I gave you a handgun to take home with you, would you use it to purposely maim or kill someone?

    Sarah; Of course not!

    Me; Now imagine some nite, you awaken to your door being kicked in and you take this handgun to your kids room to find a very large man with a machette raised above your kid......... do you shoot him?

    Sarah; Yes, but these questions seem unfair.

    Me; Now try to imagine the same scene with a law that prohibits you from having that gun for defense.

    I summarized by telling her it appeared that giving law abiding people guns wouldn't turn them into violent criminals and that allowing them might actually save them. I also pointed out that there are lots of cities that don't have DC's crime rates without any serious gun control laws. She didn't like the way the exchange went, but she'll go home and see the light. She did say that she would never have a gun, but would trust herself is she did, but thet didn't mean she would trust others in her community to own guns.

    Hey..........I gave it my best shot.
  2. yokel

    yokel Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    At this point I am thoroughly convinced that their fictional universe runs parallel to and is as real as our own.

    How convenient and easy life must be when one avoids neat delineation between fact and fiction, and dream and reality, opting rather for a universe in which all thoughts, actions and events maintain the same degree of verisimilitude.
  3. sublimaze41

    sublimaze41 Member

    Jul 28, 2007
    Peoples Republic of Western New York
    I lived in D.C. for several years. There was basically a ban on all guns for the average Joe.

    This is how well "gun control" works...... Number 1 in murder for 2 years and number 2 for murder at least one year.

    I still can't figure out how "gun control" helps prevent murders and such. Why do the Antis never try and explain this??
  4. DEDON45

    DEDON45 Member

    Mar 31, 2008
    Columbia SC
    It's all about ignorance... they fear something they don't understand, and it makes them "feel" safe to remove that which they don't understand... sort of the human condition... but it's really hard to understand how the logic that the OP used on his acquantance (as I have used on others) doesn't cut through that IRRATIONAL fear... it's always "I'd be responsible with a firearm, but I don't trust anyone else.".... ARRRGGGGHHHHHH!
  5. scrat

    scrat Member

    Jan 27, 2007
    Monrovia, CA
    You did good. We cant change everyone. We can only educate them. most people who are against guns seem to think that everyone who owns a gun is a bad person. that idea is what needs to be changed. It needs to be changed to law abiding people have the right to own firearms. its the criminals that we need to get the guns from.

    People kill people. Guns dont. Most people who kill people should not own or have any contact with a gun.

    People misspell words. Pens dont.

    Blaming my gun for killing is like blaming my pen for misspelled words. or my keyboard on my computer. So if you guys ever think i cant spell. Blame my keyboard not me.
  6. MIL-DOT

    MIL-DOT member

    Jun 20, 2006
    (QUOTE) "How convenient and easy life must be when one avoids neat delineation between fact and fiction, and dream and reality, opting rather for a universe in which all thoughts, actions and events maintain the same degree of verisimilitude."

    Ah So, most surprising vocabulary and articulation for one so named "Yokel".:D
  7. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    Missoula, Montana
    Quixotic and naive, like every other anti I've ever encountered...
  8. bogie

    bogie Member

    Jan 2, 2003
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    Guys, there are "anti" folks, who will work to harm us, and there are "ignorant" folks - this person strikes me as far more ignorant. She thinks that guns are bad because of what she has been taught. Our role here is to gently teach her otherwise. Gently, because if we push too hard, it gets blocked out.
  9. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    Leftist extremist so-called "gun control" certainly seems to be doing a fine job so far, right?
  10. bogie

    bogie Member

    Jan 2, 2003
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    She actually might not be aware that DC has had a gun ban, which hasn't been functioning... Some folks go through life with blinders on... She may be a lawyer, but she likely gets her current events knowledge from mass media.
  11. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

    Oct 11, 2003
    What a sad reflection that is of the way she thinks about her neighbors. I like and trust mine, and I feel comfortable living amongst them. I'm not afraid to turn my back on them.

    Perhaps if everyone who thought as she does would leave Washington, DC, it might be a much better place.
  12. Sans Authoritas

    Sans Authoritas member

    Jan 12, 2008
    I have to admit, I feel absolutely safe when I am downrange sitting up pins and there are 40 guys milling about, their semi-automatic standard-capacity rifles sitting on a rack well within reach.

    I feel far less safe on the highway.

    -Sans Authoritas
  13. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

    Sep 12, 2003
    They do. You're just not paying attention.

    The reason gun control doesn't work is simple as far as the anti's are concerned.


    There - now isn't that simple?
  14. Guntalk

    Guntalk Member

    Jan 20, 2003
    When discussing gun laws with someone who appears to be anti-gun, before the conversation really gets started, it can be useful to ask him/her for a brief rundown on current gun laws, who can legally buy guns, and who can not.

    Otherwise, it's possible to spend a lot of time talking past each other because he/she does not know the current laws.
  15. csmkersh

    csmkersh Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    San Antonio TX

    In a prior life, I haunted talk.politics.guns and DC was often a subject of discussion and derision. I deja-ed up one of my old posts which I've quoted below. The increase in homicides could be layed to crack or the whites fleeing to Maryland and Virginia - or both. Data was originally extracted from the FBI UCRs and the DeptJust SourceBook for Criminal Statistics.

    Pim aka Enturbulated is a Dutchman who was on loan to the US from the Dutch Navy. Very anti-gun.
  16. belus

    belus Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    I would expect these two objections to this thread:

    1) Chicago's and DC's ban on handguns would be very effective if handguns weren't so readily available (and legal) in neighboring states.
    And I'm afraid our fear of that leading to a nation wide ban would not motivate an anti to reconsider the idea. In fact, I bet they would view it as a bonus.

    2) The UK's rise in handgun violence after their 1997 is only a temporary effect until ammunition also becomes unavailable. And besides, their crime rate per 1000 people is drastically lower than ours thanks to their heavy restrictions on gun ownership.

    I often try to form responses to these objections before the conversation starts. It helps to have a couple previously well thought out ideas readily available.

    The first objection isn't too hard to defeat by asking the anti to extend the same logic to nation states. In the same way DC's crime culture still has a healthy demand for guns, the US's crime culture will produce a strong demand for foreign guns should they be illegal here. This is a problem that the UK faces.

    To further GunTalk's comment about establishing common ground and your backgrounds prior to a heated conversation. I think it's also important to establish that the theoretical goal of gun control is crime reduction. If they're trying to reduce gun ownership as an end in itself, you're not going to make much progress.
  17. protolith

    protolith Member

    Sep 30, 2006
    You could try the more guns = fewer crimes per gun argument.

    In 2004 in the US there were roughly 8,000 homicides involving handguns.(1)

    There are an estimated 65 million handguns in the US(2)

    That makes for 1.2 Homicides per 10,000 handguns.

    In the UK there were 78 homicides involving firearms(3), I couldn't find the exact number for handguns, so lets assume it 80% from handguns, just like it is in the US(2). 80% 0f 78 is 62.4

    There are an estimated 97,000 handguns remaining in the UK(4)

    That makes for 6.43 Homicides per 10,000 handguns.

    Or you could say a handgun is 5 times more likely to be used to murder someone in the UK than it is in the US.

    (1)Extracted from Wikipedia Page on homicides in the US by weapon type.

    (2)Extracted from the Violence Policy Center

    (3)UK Home Office Violent Crime Overview, Homicide and Gun Crime 2004/2005
    (Supplementary Volume to Crime in England and Wales 2004/2005) Kathryn Coleman, Celia Hird and David Povey 26 January 2006 02/06 2nd Edition

    (4)Independent Up to 4m guns in UK and police are losing the battle
  18. ArcherandShooter

    ArcherandShooter Member

    Oct 12, 2006
    Llano, TX
    My response when someone blames crime in, for example, DC, is to ask why those areas supplying all the guns to poor DC don't ALSO have DC's huge crime problem?

    Same guns, so something else must explain the different crime rates.
  19. skinewmexico

    skinewmexico Member

    May 22, 2006
    West Texas
    You did what you could, and we do need to remember that there are a lot of "uneducated" rather than "anti". We need to set a good example, and do a better job educating.
  20. Nolo

    Nolo Member

    Jul 18, 2007
    Galveston, TX
    Of course there's not enough of it, we haven't seen genocides and iron-fisted dictatorships yet in this country.
    And yes, I am convinced that is the goal of some antis.
  21. Travis McGee

    Travis McGee Member

    Jan 12, 2003
    NE Florida
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