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MY final WORD

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Loud Dogg, May 12, 2004.

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  1. Loud Dogg

    Loud Dogg member

    May 10, 2004
    portland oregon
    I lately have been posting various comments and questions about guns and what is so controversial about them. I see that there is a law that gets paid to protect you, and that I personally believe that that is why you don’t need to be protecting yourself (I know that sometimes the law doesn’t do its justice). I hate violence, any type; from Iraqi prisoner mistreatment to terror attacks. I used to see the gun as a lead character in violence. That it is dangerous to have guns in your household. But when I began to think about this subject I realized that I haven’t even talked to the other side of the argument, instead imp having the "amity-gun-folks" tell me what you people think about the right. So I went to the Internet and started finding forums where I can ask such a question. I now understand allot more. That no one worships the gun, or would like to kill anyone in your way.

    I don’t see eye to eye on this subject yet, and probably won’t. I will continue disliking the weapons. But I know understand the right why you should be allowed to own a gun. I do have a proposal that maybe would even things out with guns, and gun safety. Have a nation wide License. I know it "limits" our rights, but we can’t have all our rights, this may be the land of the free, but we still need regulations. You may own a gun but must have a license that will have the government know about you and what you own. That is because guns can be dangerous, I now hammers also can, but guns are technically more dangerous.

    To conclude my statement: I learned allot and have changed my view on how I see things, I will continually posting (on and off) some comments on this site. But I want to thank for all the support and understanding that everyone has here. So with that said, enjoy your right, shoot your gun, but be careful.

    Loud Dogg.
  2. Josey

    Josey member

    Feb 11, 2003
    Catfish Co, KY
    I tell you what, I will accept a Gun license. There will be a compromise required. Until all minors are of age (21) they may not enter into contracts, have a license to drive, vote, serve in the military or drink alcohol and purchase tobacco products. Deal? This young man IS sharp!
  3. Night Guy

    Night Guy Member

    Dec 24, 2003
    Indianapolis, IN
    No thanks. I don't want any more permission slips from the government than necessary. And most of them are not necessary. Especially one for a Constitutionally protected right.
  4. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 29, 2002
    Would someone please invite this kid to the range so he can get some firsthand knowledge of safe gun handling?
  5. sm

    sm member

    Dec 22, 2002
    Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
    I do not have the ruling, somebody help me out, with that Supreme Court ruling. Bascially - NO they don't have to.

    License leads to registration. Registration leads to confiscation. England and Australia are examples. The crime rate exponentially went up each step of implementation. Two for two...anyone got those stats? :)

    Loud Dogg - keep an open mind and consider the source. I apologize I can't seem to find mine. You will note - when folks give a source here on THR- one can verify its authenticity.
  6. J.J.

    J.J. Member

    Jul 14, 2003
    Central Texas
    Who says we can not? I believe the constitution says that our rights shall not be infringed?

    Also as Josey hinted at - What rights are you WILLING to give up.

    I just honestly want to know why someone would willingly give up any of the rights that they have. That just seems to be beyond me.


    I do not mean to sound sarcistic or harsh I am just not sure how to phrase those comments in a better manner.. I think that this topic has alot in common with this one and they have said everything much more eloquently than I could.
  7. Fly320s

    Fly320s Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    New Hampshire
    Loud Dogg,

    Don't leave. Stick around here for a few months. You may learn much more about life, liberty, law, and the people of U.S. than you will learn in school or anywhere else.

    You don't need to be actively involved in a discussion to learn. Just reading the discussion thread and giving the topic some real thought will allow you to learn more than you expect.

    When, not if, you come across a topic that is under heated discussion (lots of tempers and yelling), please don't be offended or think that we are all that way all the time. If you stay here a little longer you will see that we THR people are mostly good, just like the rest of the U.S.

    I really believe that if you keep reading this forum over the next few months you will improve your cognitive ability regardless of whether you agree with us.
  8. DMK

    DMK Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Over the hills and far, far away
    The job of law enforcement is not to protect you, it is to enforce laws. If somebody breaks into your house at 3am, there isn't going to be a policeman there to protect you. However, they probably will commit a lot of time and effort into finding and arresting your killer (whatever that is worth to you). Talk to a policeman some time. Most will agree that it's the general public's job to prevent crime. It is whether the public is expected to prevent crime with a gun or a whistle that is the cause of great debate.
    I abhor violence. I don't like violent video games, I don't like violence on TV (probably why I rarely watch TV), I certainly don't like it in real life. I hate war and feel that our government gets us involved in war irresponsibly. I feel that we (America) do too much of the wrong things and don't do enough of the right things to prevent/fight crime.

    However, guns by themselves do not cause, facilitate, or perpetuate crime or war. It is greed that does.

    I have a large number of guns in my home. Yet I live in peace and harmony with life and nature. It's all about responsibility. Go figure. :)
  9. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

    Jan 3, 2003
    SE Wisconsin
    I admire your stance, but in the real world, pacifistic idealism breaks down.

    Like it or not, there are alot of bad people out there who like, no enjoy, hurting, mugging, beating, raping, lynching, burning, cutting, strangling, torturing, or just plain killing others. When confronted with such a person in the wrong place, you can do two things: roll over and be at their mercy, or fight back and live to see another day. In all likelyhood, the police will not be there to protect you- they have never been there when I've needed them once or twice in the past when I was in a dangerous situation. Police usually don't show up to a crime scene until after the crime has occured- its not their fault, they are human too and don't have the luck of having superhuman ESP powers.

    If you find yourself in a situation that you dearly wished you never stepped into, it might be because the bad guy is much stronger than you, or there are more of them than you can handle, the only reliable defense is a gun.
    Carrying a gun is not a violent act, a gun itself is not violent, but it may be necessary to use one to counteract a violent predator.

    There is and old made for bumperstickers type saying that holds true:
    God made men.
    Samuel Colt made them equal.
  10. cxm

    cxm Member

    Jan 29, 2003
    Florida, CSA
    I'd sure like you to explain to me why we can't have "ALL" our rights?

    Does inalienable rights mean anything to you?

    Which rights are you willing to give up? First Amendment? Fourth? Fifth? Maybe you would like to give up the 14th Amdendment rights?

    WHO decides which rights you get to keep?

    Trading your rights for a promise of safety is a fools game... Ben Franklin wrote about that very thing.

  11. bogie

    bogie Member

    Jan 2, 2003
    St. Louis, in the Don't Show Me state
    Dogg, consider this...

    The Iraqi prisoners were humiliated and photographed.

    I've witnessed worse treatment of fraternity pledges.

    An American who was held hostage by Iraqis was beheaded yesterday.

    I do not think that there is ANY comparison here.

    On the subject of firearms: It's better to have knowledge, and never need it, than to need the knowledge, and not have it.
  12. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Lafayette, Indiana-the Ned Flanders neighbor to Il
    sm, it's DeShaney v. Winnebago County. Loud, the government has no, I repeat no obligation to protect you.

    The police serve one function, they are the eyes, ears and hands of the prosecuting attorney. The police are not there to ensure your safety.

    As a Ch'an Buddhist, I hate violence as well. However, recall the Paradox of Life, one must accept violence and death in order to truly live and to be free from them.:)
  13. ThreadKiller

    ThreadKiller Member

    Jan 28, 2004
    Wow! I must be leading a charmed life. My five brothers and I grew up in a house full of guns. We're all still here. :)

    We were all taught at an early age that guns were not toys and there was a time and a place for gun use. It was made abundantly clear what that time and place was and that there were penalties if the rules were not observed.

    Now as a grown man, there are guns in my house. There's a 45 within arm's reach as I write this. I'm more comfortable with a 45 near me than a gallon of gas in my garage.

    The point I'm trying to make in a roundabout fashion is this: The weapon, the REAL weapon, lies between the ears, not what is in the hands.

    And if you still believe gun control is an effective means of crime control, then in all honesty I believe you should be campaigning for the same restrictions on alcohol sales and possession.

    And I would like to thank you for at least trying to keep an open mind on this subject. :)

  14. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

    Nov 11, 2003
    New Jersey Highlands
    Licenses are required for privledges, not RIGHTS.

    So I tell you what, let them issue licenses for free speech (1st amendment) first. If they get that done, then worry about guns.

    After all, ideas are much more dangerous than guns aren't they?
  15. Skofnung

    Skofnung Member

    Jun 19, 2003
    Atlanta Area
    Mr. Dogg,

    I am glad you have learned from your short time on this board. Please, stick around, sit a spell...

    On the subject of giving up rights for the "good of society", I will not do this. I will not be issued a chit from the omniscient, omnipotent .gov/ in trade for my Constitutional rights. This is not limited to the 2nd Ammendment by any means.

    Please do not take this as an insult, but it scares me that people think as you do about subjects of rights and liberties. It makes me concerned about the future of my Country and my World.

    Perhaps I missed this in previous posts, but you are a German citizen right? How long have you been over here in the USA? Perhaps our ideals of Liberty have not had time to sink in yet after years of Socialist brainwashing, or perhaps you are getting a healthy dose of brainwashing from our (US) public school system...

    Here is an open invitation to you. If you ever find yourself in Northern Florida, PM me and I will gladly take you shooting.

    Best regards
  16. griz

    griz Member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Eastern Virginia
    This might surprise you but I will agree with your nation wide license, with one important stipulation. The license would also be a nation wide concealed carry license. It would be valid anywhere in the country. Also as long as it was current it would eliminate the need for a background check when you buy a gun. That's my idea of common sense gun laws.
  17. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

    Jul 25, 2003
    The Great Pacific NorthWet
    Kitchen knives in the house are dangerous also.
    Now I don't use a kitchen knife every day. Only about 5 days a week.
    I carry a gun every day.
    I have cut myself several times in the years I have been cooking.
    I have never shot myself.

    More people are killed by falling in the bathtub every year in the US than are killed by gunshots.

    Dogg, why do you think a federal license is a good idea? We already have to have a background check done before we can purchase a gun. Which, by the way, does little of nothing to stop criminals from getting a gun.

    Criminals wil always have weapons, laws or no laws.
    Now this may come as a shock to you, so brace yourself and prepare for an epiphany, criminals are only criminals because they... BREAK THE LAW!
    What? You expect criminals to play by the rules? Ain't gonna happen.
    Only law abiding people abide by the laws. Funny how that works isn't it?
  18. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    How would you prevent those who do not obtain a "license" from carrying and using guns illegally?
  19. Thumper

    Thumper Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Rosenberg, Texas
    Funny how delving into an issue to see the "other side" can be enlightening, huh Dogg?
  20. raz-0

    raz-0 Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    well we already have listed the supreme court case that officially put down in black and white why the police are NOT paid to protect you (they uphold the law... after the fact).

    I will also point out that One of my friends recently was on jury duty for a trial in which Mr. X beat in the skull of Mrs. X with a hammer. You argue to her family that it's not very dangerous.
  21. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Quote: " I will continue disliking the weapons"

    I have heard simular statements like " I hate guns" and "guns are dangerous"

    Make me understand loud dogg - the hate for guns !

    They are totaly inanimate objects with no capability of self awareness. They can by themselves do no good or no harm.

    When it comes to good or evil I will hold that to be in the character of the person .
  22. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 22, 2002
    Kampong Cham, Cambodia
    Why can't we have all of our rights?
    Why do we need regulations????
    "The Wild West" had less murders per 1000 than the civilized East.

    If the USA repealed all the regulations and "Safety" laws and kept the laws that protected true criminal behavior, Murder, Extortion, and other crimes that deal with one person unjustly harming another person or property. I think that the lawyer should serve the sentence with the criminal if they loose.

    O and the People (Juries) should be told that their POWER is the BOXs, Ballot, Soap, Ammo, and the one most forgotten is the Jury, if a jury of the people feel that a law is bad they can vote not guilty for reasons of a bad law.
  23. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Winter Haven, FL
  24. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    the heart of the American spirit is driven to provide for oneself. to be an American means that you are willing to rely upon yourself for as much as possible. that includes protecting yourself and your loved ones.

    loud dogg, it sounds like you want to remove my ability to do just that. know what? every criminal in this country agrees with you.

    criminals prefer unarmed victims, and so do you.
  25. stevelyn

    stevelyn Member

    Mar 9, 2003
    Fairbanksan in Aleutian Hell
    Loud Dogg,

    I assure you that I don't get paid to "protect" you or anyone else. Supreme court rulings have upheld that police do not have a responsibility to "protect" individual citizens. Our responsibility is to society as a whole to get the legal events started after someone requests our assistance.
    I get paid to investigate and gather informantion, apprehend offenders, gather evidence and coroberating evidence to ensure what you're telling me is true, do reams of paperwork documenting a series of events in chronological order, all of which takes place after the fact. After you have been assaulted either physically, sexually or otherwise. After you have been robbed. After your home which you thought was a safe haven has been invaded. After you are injured. After you are DEAD.
    These "after the fact" activities have to occur with in the framework of rules set by the U.S. Constitution. Rules set by the courts. Rules set within department policies.
    Failure to adhere to any of the above results in evidence being
    suppressed, the bad guy going free, or in cases of police misconduct in a case, officers getting criminally charged. If any of this happens you won't see "justice". Even when everything is done right, the legal system often fails to administer justice by imposing too light of a sentence for the crimes committed.
    You say that the law gets paid to protect you so you don't need to be protecting yourself? Ask any British subject how well the law "protects" them. Ask anyone of Jewish, Slavic, or Gypsy extraction how well the law "protected" them in Germany 60 years ago. Ask any Russian who lived under Soviet rule how well the law "protected" them. Ask any Cubano who has survived the boat ride to American shores how well Castro's laws "protect" them. Ask a Canadian how well their laws are "protecting" them. Ask North Koreans how well the laws "protect' them (if you can get through to one). Ask a resident of any large America metropolitan area with severly restrictive gun laws, how well the law "protects" them from the gang bangers, street thugs, home invaders and other low-life predatory trash. Ask any woman whose been duped by society into believing that restraining order would "protect" her, and consequently killed by a violent husband or boyfriend, if the law "protected" her. Ooops! Too late, you can't she's already DEAD. There are others too numerous to list here. Get the idea now?
    Young man, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Take a look around you and observe what's going on. Read and pay very close attention to history. It does repeat itsself. Watch what people do, not what they say. You are only 15 now and getting bombarded with information, some good, some bad. As you get older, your life experiences will change your views if you are open minded and capable of learning from those experiences. I hope you learn without having to pay a high price for it.
    We all abhorr violence. Violence isn't acceptable for settling disagreements.
    We must try and live peaceful, but be ready to visit swift, ruthless and decisive violence upon those who seek to do us or our loved ones bodily harm, for that is the only thing they understand. Predators are beyond reason.
    As much as we hate violence and violent acts, I can promise you that injury, or death to ourselves or loved ones, and living as slaves under a tyrannical government are much worse. So I think I'll just hang on to my guns for now.
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