My first SHTF scenario

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by oobray, Nov 12, 2007.

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  1. oobray

    oobray Member

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    Ok, well I have had my CHL for a little over a year now and so far I have either been lucky, or my situational awareness has been good enough to thwart evil doers. However, last week I found myself in my favorite gun shop chating with the owner and some other people. We notice a very old cadilac pull up with three gang banger looking individuals and one not so much inside. We all take notice, but because there are many other stores in this area we didn't think too much. Then I looked agian and noticed that they were all still sitting in there and looking in the front door (about 5 minutes has passed). So all of us in the store really start to go from yellow to orange and pay more attention.
    They all get out and when they enter the store they all have thier hands either in thier pockets of their pants, or in their coats. One of them even has his hands inside his shirt, and this was a baggy shirt which could have hidden a shotgun if he wanted to. Immediatly when they entered the owner of the store affirmatively told them that they needed the show thier hands, and that proper etiqutte when entering a gun store is to have your hands visible. The replied with expletive after expletive, and as they were doing so they all started to spread out in the front of the store. When they started doing this I took concealment behind a kiosk of pepper spray and drew my Springfield Armory Champion, the owner drew his Kimber and he again affirmatively ordered them to show thier hands or leave.
    They of course replied with the same expletives, and then the guy with his hands in his shirt started making some very aggressive looking movements under the shirt. I think that's when one of the other guys in the store (a good guy) had obtained a loaded shotgun from behind the counter and pointed it over the top of the counter.
    This convinced them to leave, however as they did they yelled "we'll get you on the street mother$%^&@#". We called the police and they dealt with them.

    It was a pretty stressful visit to my favorite gunstore. Funny thing is, this is the place that I took my CHL class and it was almost the first time it came in handy too. Kinda ironic huh?
     
  2. elkhuntingfool

    elkhuntingfool member

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    Pretty stupid of them to try and make trouble inside of gun store.

    My boy and I were at a gun store and he mentioned that someone would have to be insane to try something at a gun store.
     
  3. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

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    You know, I've always wondered if people that are the vocal about racial, or any other type of profiling, have ever actually been in a situation that it would be helpful in. In this case, you ID'd the gangstas and the owner of the shop was polite at first, giving them every chance to be equally polite and to show a lack of devious intent. Then they showed that they weren't interested in doing business the shop-owner's way, and the situation escalated. To tell the truth, this certainly could have been a robbery that was foiled, though it's hard to tell if that's what it actually was.

    Had there only been one customer and the owner, it could have gone very badly, though I'd put my money on the good-guys. Punks with guns versus trained and practiced people who are on the ready.... Little, if any, contest.
     
  4. cyclist

    cyclist Member

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    Okay, how about the rest of the story? Did the police find them? I assume so based upon "they dealt with them". Did the police find any weapons on them? Anything else about them? I feel like I'm in the dentist's office reading a magazine article and the article says 'continued on page 37', but when I turn to look for page 37 I find someone ripped it out to take the coupon on page 36 for their free Visit Wyoming tourist package.
     
  5. rjohnson4405

    rjohnson4405 Member

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    Yeah, what he said! Where's the rest of the details? Glad everything worked out for the best, I'm not so sure gun shop owners around here would have had as much trigger discipline as you gentlemen. I certainly wouldn't be screwing around in a gun store like that.

    Glad I'm shooting this evening, oh and that reminds me I'm introducing a new shooter. Good day!
     
  6. oobray

    oobray Member

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    Well, I neglected to mention the rest of the story because it turns out to be very innocent. Well sort of. i wanted people to think about the potential seriousness of the scenario before I finished.

    So, they all leave the store to get in their caddy, and I as well as the others inside still have our weapons trained on them. They get in, and sit there. I still have my weapon trained on the drivers head and I'm thinking that they're waiting to get more weapons, friends etc. Then they all get out, and I'm really ready for SHTF now. Once they get out they start pushing the car!!! Yes, the "get away" vehicle has failed!
    About this time the police roll up on them and we all watch as ONE cop, yes ONE cop detains and questions all of them at the same time. THis guy was nuts!
    After it was all said and done the cop came in to the store to hear our side of the story. We told him, and he explained thier side.
    They told him that they had just visited another gun store not too far from there and one of them (the non-gangsta) was looking for a camo shotgun stock for his mossberg. The other store owner didn't have said product and directed him to the store I was in.
    Well, the car was such a piece of crap and didn't have heat (it was a little chily that day, for TX anyway) and the reason the all had thier hands in their pockets and in the one guy's shirt is because they windows don't roll up and they were all very cold. They didn't find any guns, or other weapons nor any other sort of contraband on the kids.
    Later, the non-gangsta and his mother came to the store and apologized.

    It's kinda funny, but I just wanted to share with everyone what MIGHT have happened. Because we didn't know they were cold. All I knew is that there were 4 individuals that were aggressively not wanting to reveal what was under thier shirts.
    The COPS told us we did the right thing and asked the owner if he wanted to file charges for criminal trespass. He declined and that was the end of the story.

    So, sorry the ending wasn't that exciting. But it could have been a lot worse.
    Another interesting tid bit is that the COP who detained these individuals all by himself.... wasn't even wearing a vest!
     
  7. cyclist

    cyclist Member

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    Thanks for the followup.

    It's always a fine line between caution and lack thereof, one I'm glad I don't have to balance on very often.
     
  8. mekender

    mekender Member

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    baggy clothes could have easily been hiding armor... those guys could have come loaded for bear... all you guys did the right thing... the guys coming into the store didnt have to start spouting profanity, thats just bad manners...
     
  9. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Any group of guys who decide to continue fronting attitudes in a gun shop, with guns drawn on them, aren't Eagle Scouts.


    These guys might not have had weapons on them when the police detained them. But I'd put money down on the table right now on a wager that they aren't strangers to criminal activity. Just because the police couldn't detain them, or didn't find anything on them that constituted an arrestable offense, doesn't mean this wasn't a serious situation.

    You're telling me these guys had guns drawn on them, with the owner ready to shoot them because he thought they were there to rob the place, and they didn't immediately change their behavior? That would be called a clue. It doesn't mean they intended to rob the place. It does mean they weren't uncomfortable letting the owner think they were there to do that. If guys drew guns on them, and they didn't immediately make an effort to clear up the misinterpretation . . . . that's a big god darn clue.


    These guys were comfortable in that situation. You learned something last week. I've said time and time again that some criminals simply aren't impressed by having a gun drawn on them. You learned that lesson.


    The only critique I have is don't point the gun at someone unless you are actually pulling the trigger. Besides the obvious problems, it won't do anything more to intimidate someone who isn't already bothered by a person with a gun. And it serves to obstruct your view. When your hands, forearms, and gun are in front of your face it blocks your view of the entire bottom half of your target. Especially at close distances. You'll miss what his hands are doing.
     
  10. QuickDraw

    QuickDraw Member

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    I would have guessed that it might have been a "dry
    run" to see what kind of security the store had.
    It always cracks me up when gangsta's get all
    bent out of shape when they get no respect,
    especially when they give no respect.Idiots.
     
  11. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    Yeah right. every kid who's just cold replies with "I'll get you on the street Mofo."

    Cold my ass. You did the right thing. So did the shop owners. well done.
     
  12. Lew

    Lew Member

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    Reminds me of Crash when the two guys are complaining about profiling, right before they carjack someone.

    Brrr...we're so cold.
     
  13. Joe Meyer

    Joe Meyer Member

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    If it had come to shooting, that might not be a good place to hide. A stray bullet hits your hiding place, you'd be sorry. :evil:
     
  14. oobray

    oobray Member

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    Joe Meyer, I never thought about the pepper spray going off with a stray round. That's definately a possibility I suppose. But the shop is really small and there wasn't really anything else.

    BullFrog,

    You're right about drawing down I suppose. However, the reason i drew was because when the individual started making furtive movements under his shirt, and the four of them spread out across the front of the store, I thought things were about to get ugly right then. I didn't want to be behind the curve with my gun in my holster. Here's the headline I DIDN'T want to see

    Thanks to all for the responses. I did learn several things...

    1) When looking at possibly having to react to a deadly force encounter, my 45 seemed like a BB gun.

    2) The particular gunstore needs to make many improvements to the layout of the store

    3) Being the first to point a gun does NOT mean that the BG will automaticaly give up.

    I do think that this was good for me though. I learned several things, and I noticed that the few months prior to this incident I was getting lax on not only my situational awareness but also I was starting to leave my gun at home due to "convenience. Now, I am in constant orange. I guess everyone needs a reality check every now and again.

    Thanks again guys, and stay safe!
     
  15. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    I train my CCW students to point the weapon at the BG's groin if they ever have to take someone at gunpoint(still keep the trigger finger indexed until they need to shoot) for just that reason. You wind up with basically a low ready position, and it gets people's attention. :evil:
     
  16. cyclist

    cyclist Member

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    You're going to get battle fatigue, take a rest and de-escalate a bit, relax, assess your surroundings, find a comfy hideyhole. Constant Orange leads to constant fatigue.
     
  17. sm

    sm member

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    BullfroKen's post number 9 is spot on.

    If I were this gun store owner, I would re-arrange store just a bit, as the layout has been "cased".
    If he does not, I for sure would have metal posts set into concrete out front to deter a vehicle being driven in.
    Also, good "cover and shooting lanes". Such as steel plates, concrete blocks up and under show cases, and other things to provide good cover.

    These youths have BTDT and it would not surprise me, if the method used is to just come in, start shooting and busting show cases.
    Tire tool busting a show case, will un nerve a store owner and customers, and in that blink of an eye, the brain and motor skills are delayed...which is the idea.

    Access and beef up roof and any back/side access to this place as well.
     
  18. Eyesac

    Eyesac Member

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    Boy, that's as close as you get w/o actually doing something. Scary!
     
  19. dasmi

    dasmi Member

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    I never understood why anyone makes trouble in a gun shop. That's probably the one place on earth you are 100% guaranteed to take a bullet if you act up.
     
  20. woodybrighton

    woodybrighton member

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    there was a case many moons ago in the UK where some idiot tried to rob a gun shop got a .357 between the eyes and no charges were pressed :D
    think parents of the zombie tried to make something of it but he was a junkie had a replica and a knife and a long record so no charges.
    anyone robbing a gun store now would only get bolt actions and shotguns not exactly the criminals first choice still probably get shot though :D
     
  21. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I didn't critique you for the decision to draw. I suggested keeping it someplace besides right up in front of your face, aimed in on someone else, until you've made the decision to fire.

    To get an idea of what I mean, go stand in front of a full length mirror. Simulate you have a gun in your hands, and aim in on your reflection. Head, chest, it doesn't really matter . . . How much can you see of your reflection?

    Obviously your hands are pointing back at you, and if you see that from an aggressor you know what you need to do. If your aggressor didn't have a weapon when you drew and aimed in on him, you probably aren't justified in shooting him yet. While you're standing like that, if he does decide to produce a weapon, your hands, forearms and gun will block your view of that motion.

    Contrary to what you might first think, it puts you behind the curve. You might notice he drew from other body movements, like a shoulder dropping, but you won't see what he actually did. You'll have to break your sight picture to check out what he just did, and you'll be behind the curve if that movement produced a weapon. Better to just train to keep the gun at low ready or some retention position so you can see everything going on around you as it unfolds, not after it happens.
     
  22. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    Camo shotgun stock? Sounds like he was a bird hunter. Sign him up for NRA's hunter safety course!
     
  23. fiVe

    fiVe Member

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    I'm no expert, but I, too, think the store was being cased. Why would anyone be adamant enough to chance being shot just because their hands are cold?
     
  24. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    It's a good thing they didn't get shot! It sounds to me like a fair amount of mutual mistrust was at play. It takes some courage for a black man to walk into your average gun store, and he may have been after moral support from his nogoodnick buddies.

    But all of that is irrelevant to the tactical situation. Whether you're shot in a robbery or shot after a series of misunderstandings, you're still shot. And as a customer there's not much you can do one way or the other but follow the lead of the owner and clerks. I would suggest taking cover behind somehing other than a display of pepper spray! Not only will it fail to stop a bullet, but the containers if struck may cover you with pepper spray.
     
  25. BlackBearME

    BlackBearME Member

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    cyclist,

    What kind of magazines do you read? The coupon would be on p. 38 :neener:

    I agree with BullfrogKen, though. Anyone who doesn't immediately change their behavior on having three (if I read that right) guns drawn...there's something fishy there.
     
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