My question of the day 9mm reloading Looking for enlightenment

[simon_rook]

An acquaintance says he had good results loading Rainier 124gr hp under about 7 gr of blue dot. I had enough info to start but no OAL.
To start I measured a federal HST 124 gr. It came in at 1.100 and thats what I went with. The HST is .595 in length and and the Rainier is .551-.555 so I figured it would be safe. My chamber length is 1.185 with this bullet in a fired case.
I worked up from 6.3 to 7.1 in .2gr increments. These tests weren't for accuracy just consistency of velocity and actual velocity as well as safety. I like to do my accuracy testing at the indoor range and unfortunately the floor is always littered with brass and I dont want to have to search for my spent cases in the mess. I shoot velocities and check cases in the desert then bring them indoor for finals.
Around 7.1 the velocities began to stabilize but I decided to push it up to 7.2 to see if tolerances tightened any further. This is what I'm working on now.
I just got done putting 50 of them together and before I crimp I measure all 50. I know a varience of +/- .003 is to be expected But I had a few (4) come out at 1.094. Are they safe?

I know I put a lot of extra info in here but I figured the more you know the more it would help and being new I would like any info or critique as to what I'm doing right and what I may be doing wrong. Secondly I noticed a lot of people vary their over all length some at 1.115 all the way up to 1.150. I went with 1.1 based on the most accurate production bullet I've shot and similar characteristics (length and weight) .Wise or foolish?

 

[1SOW]

When trying a new bullet, the first thing I do is check to find the "max" oal that will chamber without touching the rifling in my pistol with that new bullet. With hollow point bullets, that means it will be shorter than a round nose bullet. Unless that 'SAME' bullet is in the commercial ammo you are using for a model, your comparison may not work.

The bullet nose shape/length drives what will work in your pistol. After you find the "max" oal you can use, shorten the oal by about .015" to allow for press variations and a little head space. This is the max 'usable' oal in 'your' pistol for 'that' bullet.

If load data shows a longer oal than your gun can use, then you have to lower the charge below the min data shown and work up, like you mentioned.

TO FIND THE MAX OAL: With an unsized spent case, seat a bullet by hand just deep enough to hold. Carefully push this into your chamber with the barrel removed from the pistol until it seats firmly on the case mouth. Carefully slide it back out and measure the oal. This test case was either resting on the rifling or the shoulder of the bullet. Do this several times until you get a consistent max oal, then subtract .015" and you have a "max usable" oal.

Develop your load at this max usable OAL or shorter.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[LiveLife]

Max vs Ideal OAL:

Once you determined the maximum OAL, then next you need to determine the ideal OAL as max OAL may not reliably feed/chamber from the magazine.

I perform function check with a dummy round (no powder/primer) starting with the max OAL (determined from the barrel drop test) or SAAMI max OAL (whichever is shorter) and feed/chamber from the magazine and manually release the slide. If I have any feeding/chambering issues, I incrementally decrease the OAL (like .005") until it feeds/chambers reliably. Generally, longer the OAL, the sooner the bullet's bearing surface will engage the rifling to produce more consistent chamber pressures, which results in more consistent shot groups.

Once I determined the ideal OAL, then I move onto working up my loads from the start powder charge towards max while looking for loads that produce the most accurate shot groups while reliably cycling the slide with no extraction issues.

Most powder/bullet combinations will continue to improve shot groups as powder charge approaches max charge, but some powder will reach a plateau where accuracy won't improve that much; or for a few, actually get worse.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Soon after I began reloading I tried to work up ever 9mm bullet and powder combination to the point of destruction.

Alliant calls 7.9 gr Blue Dot max for 124 gr. 1.12"
I found that 9.7 gr is still wimpy at 1.168". That is nearly all that will fit.

Alliant calls 5.4 gr Blue Dot max for 147 gr. 1.13"
I found that 8.0 gr is still wimpy at 1.168". That is nearly all that will fit.

If I plug Rainier .525" bullets 124 gr 9mm 7.4 gr Blue dot into Quickload, it thinks that 1.1" OAL is 24kpsi and 1.0" OAL is 54 kpsi.

I can't hit anything with a pistol without a scope, but I find in most rifles, they like the bullet touching the lands for accuracy. The exception would be 44 mag and 45 Colt, which want a roll crimp in the cannelure for accuracy.

 

[LiveLife]

Many factory barrels have longer leade (distance the bullet "jumps" through from case neck to the start of rifling) and loading pistol rounds to the point of bullet nose almost touching may likely result in rounds that have feeding/chambering issues. I recommend reloaders conduct max/ideal OAL determination using their own pistols/barrels.

Unlike precision rifle cartridges loaded on single stage press with cases cut to proper length using case length gauge (which results in very small variations in OAL of finished cartridges), most pistol cases are never checked/cut to proper lengths and often loaded on turret/progressive presses which result in greater variations in OAL of finished cartridges.

Because of this, I do not recommend loading pistol cartridges to the OAL where it touches the rifling.

Now, if you are using cases with consistent lengths on a single stage press with very tight quality controls, you may get away with OAL that "almost" touches the start of the rifling, but my guess is that OAL will probably be less than SAAMI max OAL as pistol manufacturers will factor SAAMI specs into their barrel/chamber.

 

[threefeathers]

Hi, I load a lot of 9mm because I use that caliber in most of the schools I go to and during the drought I developed a lot of loads.
I buy most of my powder at either the Sportsman's warehouse or at Slash K in Tucson.
I have 2k 9mm brass that I no longer seperate as I've fired most of it.
Get Handloader magazine or go to their website and stay up to date.
My favorite load is one I got years ago from Bob Jenson. 4.7 grains of P B in any 124 grain bullet will give a solid practice load.

 

[Steve C]

I've loaded 115gr jhp's with Blue Dot. Set OAL to what works in your guns chamber and is no longer than SAAMI maximum OAL. 7 to 8 grs of BD will pretty much fill the case and the load will likely be compressed anyway.

Average velocity for my 115gr load was 1,224 fps from a Beretta 92 so not exceptionally fast even though 8.0grs was a max load according to the data I had at the time.

 

[Blue68f100]

To start I measured a federal HST 124 gr. It came in at 1.100 and thats what I went with.

Why are you going off a factory round for your OAL? You have no idea of the powder used. You can always go out to max but you have to be careful loading SHORT. Some powders do not like that...... You need to be using books to determine where to be starting out. Rainer's load as LEAD to mid jacketed. HST can be loaded to full.

 

[simon_rook]

Thanks for all the great info so far guys! Three feathers, sounds like we frequent the same places. I haven't been to slash K yet but damn, I better get a christmas card from sportsmans. You know anyplace in town I can find HC or Lynotype 380's?

 

[918v]

BD is totally inappropriate for the 9mm, unless you like the fireball. Cuz the fireball is really impressive.

 

[simon_rook]

lol so I heard. I didn't see much of one though maybe I'm not doing it right?

 

[918v]

Are you shooting indoors? Cuz outdoor shooting and indoor shooting are completely different animals.

 

[simon_rook]

Well I been shooting them outdoor because collecting my brass is easier so inspecting it is too. Once I'm confident the loads are safe I plan on bringing them indoors for accuracy testing

 

[ripp]

are you hunting with the 9mm, or what? cause otherwise, the accuracy of the gun and loads are irrelevant. All you will ever be able to use in the way of accuracy, while being shot at, is 10" groups at 25 yds and believe me, when it's "for blood", you will do a lot of missing of the chest at 10 yds, if you have many such occurances.

 

[918v]

Don't listen to anti-accuracy people. Go and test them like you said.

 

[LiveLife]

Don't listen to anti-accuracy people.

+1. Holes on target speak volumes.

I shoot pistol loads mostly at indoor ranges and can't use a chrono. So I depend on accuracy to reference consistent chamber pressure generation.

If your loads are consistently very accurate, chances are they are producing consistent chamber pressures, at least in theory.

 

[simon_rook]

Oh I agree whole heartedly. Thats part of the fun of reloading. If I just wanted it to go bang I could save a lot of time and powder. I shoot for accuracy. I reload to save money. If the loads aren't accurate I wont know if I'm off or if its the ammo. I use a chrony in the desert when I'm checking primers and casings for stress. That way I can see what kina of consistency I'm getting there. When velocities begin to stabilize I go indoors to see what I need to do from there. Works pretty good. I had some .380's I loaded that only deviated by 1fps and shot great. I got lucky there and it's only kept me chasing consistency since

 

[simon_rook]

HAHA Looks like I dont have a chrono either anymore.... damn it~:banghead:
Time to order new rods...

 

[simon_rook]

My favorite load is one I got years ago from Bob Jenson. 4.7 grains of P B in any 124 grain bullet will give a solid practice load.

Just picked up a pound. Another guy in the store and I were talking. He pulled some of that off the shelf and said it was a fine powder in any hand gun. 2 referrals in the same day? I bought it. I cant find any info now for 124gr plated. Could I get a little more info from you?

 

[LiveLife]

From Hodgdon's website:

125 gr LCN IMR PB .356" OAL 1.125" Start 2.9 gr (908 fps) 25,500 PSI - Max 3.4 gr (1004 fps) 34,000 PSI

125 gr Sierra FMJ IMR PB .355" OAL 1.090" Start 3.2 gr (887 fps) 25,600 PSI - Max 3.6 gr (974 fps) 33,500 PSI

For Berry's plated bullets with larger diameter (.356"), I tend to use lead load data; and for Rainier plated bullets (.355"), I tend to use jacketed load data.

 

[simon_rook]

Thanks I'll give it a shot...no pun

 

[evan price]

I load a LOT of those Rainier 124-HPs to 1.125" OAL but I am using 4.7 grains of Titegroup to get a +P load. Very good shooting load! Not obnoxious, clean burning, feels like you are shooting something but not hurting yourself.

I personally do not like Blue Dot.

 

[gamestalker]

Hi there. I load a lot of 9mm on a single stage and I load just about every jacketed bullet that lives. I have two powders I use exclusively for 9mm and 40 S&W with excellent performance. Those powders are HS6 and Longshot. Both provide a dense load and maintain consistent velocities without any high pressure signs, even when my work up takes me well over published maximum data. If your desiring a good accurate high velocity load with consistent higher working pressures, those two are very good powders.

 

[simon_rook]

I picked up some Longshot recently to use with some Tac XP bullets I got. I plan on trying it under others eventually.

Right now I'm sitting on PB, Longshot, Unique, Blue Dot, and Power pistol. I think I need to find one and stick with it. This stuff lasts forever and at this rate I'll have more than I'll ever use...

..second though, more than I'll use in a while.

 

[1SOW]

from bds: From Hodgdon's website:


Quote:
125 gr LCN IMR PB .356" OAL 1.125" Start 2.9 gr (908 fps) 25,500 PSI - Max 3.4 gr (1004 fps) 34,000 PSI

125 gr Sierra FMJ IMR PB .355" OAL 1.090" Start 3.2 gr (887 fps) 25,600 PSI - Max 3.6 gr (974 fps) 33,500 PSI

The PB powder shows very high pressure with very low speed as shown in the 124gr data. It won't even make minimum power factor in IPSC/IDPA-type comp. If it works your action you can 'putt' with it.

It's a single base base powder so it should burn clean, but the powder is too fast with a very narrow load range.

BD goes to other end of the burn rate charts. It's slow burning (all the way out of the bbl) and takes a lot of powder to function.

For light or heavy loads, these are not real effective 9mm powders. They will go bang.