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My thoughts on OC Spray

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by mercop, Nov 13, 2007.

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  1. Zwetschgen

    Zwetschgen Member

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    I carry pepper spray every day, the VAST MAJORITY of muggings or robberies occur as ladies go to their car, or have keys in hand, so, I take my pepper spray out or have my hand on it as I am walking. The problem with carrying an asp/baton/etc. are so numerous.
    1. Call your local non-emergency police line and ask if officers are are allowed to use OC or their baton first as a situation escalates.
    2. Batons/Asps are considered 'black jacks' and illegal to carry in Missouri
    3. They are, in my opinion, not a less-lethal alternative. A baton is way more lethal than pepper spray. Just as everyone has said, the best way to win a fight is to not to get in one. It basically comes down to situational awareness.
     
  2. James T Thomas

    James T Thomas Member

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    eye witness

    Mercop:

    Your insight and understanding are not lost on me.

    Thanks, I think you are correct.

    For the tobacco and snuffers. My country folk cousins swore by a squirt of juice in the eyes. Pretty quick and with practice, accurate too.

    I'm hoping for more police input, and my guess is that most will agree.
    The "Force Continum" mandated by many police departments is a legal and liable concept given to the already burdened officer that places him at further job related risk. It has a nice sound to it though. Public Relations people like it.
    There were; before "Force Continum," other legal remedies to
    bring to justice brutal and out of control officers wearing a badge.
     
  3. B.D. Turner

    B.D. Turner Member

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    I work in a large jail and see OC spray and Taser used on a regular basis. Both of which work most of the time.
     
  4. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    The foam that I'm talking about is Fox Labs, but most of the OC manufacturers have it available. It's roughly the consistency of runny shaving cream and it's nasty stuff in that once you get it on you, it sticks. I've been sprayed with stream, cone and foam, and foam takes a bit more time to take effect(but not much). It has approximately the same range as the stream, cone and spray products, i.e., 10-15 feet.

    The big difference is that if you spray any of the others and remain in the same place, you're gonna get some effect from the vapors. With foam, it just sits there and you don't even smell it because it's not as volatile as stream or cone. This lessens the immediate effect of the foam on the BG somewhat, since it doesn't hit their sinuses and throat as quickly stream or cone does. It is more persistent, however, and does have the effect of physically obstructing their vision if you get 'em in the eyes.

    This lack of volatility made it nice for jailers, since if you use stream or cone OC in a confined space everyone in the room gets a dose. Foam doesn't do that. I've sprayed it on the floor in my garage in the summer and after about 5 minutes I could smell it a little, but there was no effect like you'd get with any other OC. The down side is that the BG can scrape the foam off and fling it back at you, but that only works if you're trying to close with him and go hands on. If you're just trying to get away, foam doesn't fling very far. Another plus is that if the wind is strong enough to blow it back at you it's visible enough that you can dodge it.

    I still use foam if I'm working court security so that if I do have to spray someone I don't have to worry about OC'ing everybody else in the room.
     
  5. csmkersh

    csmkersh Member

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    Google MACE for their web site. They make a foam spray in a pocket sized dispenser.

     
  6. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    Just googled "MACE foam" and who'da thunk it? Came up with pepper gel:
    http://www.milestonesafety.com/peppergel.html

    Just like Edge gel shaving cream. Wonder how it feels? :evil:

    Better description of pepper gel:

    http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/pepper/mace/peppergel.htm

    Looks like it has potential for those of you who are extremely sensitive to cross-contamination. I'd still get some and test it outside under controlled conditions to be sure. Maybe spray some on your driveway and see how well you can tolerate being in the same area with it. Make sure you take adequate safety precautions, liking having assistance and first aid immediately available.
     
  7. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Member

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    My wife is a realtor and holds open houses. There have been a number of attacks on female realtors in open houses. I have talked to her about carrying a firearm multiple times and she won't have any part of it. Period. She is 55 yrs of age and 5'3". She has no interest in self defense training. She always says she doesn't have time. Physical contact weapons would be a last resort. I have taught her how to gouge eyes, grab testicles, etc.

    I at least convinced her to carry pepper spray. I fingure it is better than nothing at all and might give her a chance to run out of the house.

    So I belive that pepper spray does serve a useful purpose in some situations.
     
  8. BrennanKG

    BrennanKG Member

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    My 2 cents...probably worth about just that.

    I work at a max security prison, and while I've only been there for around 6 months, I've been involved with a few uses of force wherein OC was deployed.

    My experiences have led me to a few conclusions.

    1) Like most sd weapons, OC is only useful when readied. This might seem obvious to most people, but it's important to note the like with Law Enforcement, in prisons, most act of violence/uses of force are spontaneous, rather than planned.

    2) Even with significant back-splash/cross-contamination, and within confined spaces (eg: sealed chow-hall) as the one holding/delivering the OC, I was at a distinct advantage.

    3) OC effects everyone, even psychotic, AdSeg offenders with purportedly high OC tolerance, when it is delivered into someone's mouth.

    4) OC cans make perfectly decent emergency blunt-impact devices.

    5) In a State where civilians aren't allowed to carry ASPs (my wife still gripes about this) OC is yet another option in the continuum of self-defense.

    6) Training is ALWAYS the best tool for self-defense.


    v/r,
    B.
     
  9. csmkersh

    csmkersh Member

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  10. Rossshady120

    Rossshady120 member

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    i have bin sparyed 2x one time it was my dad on accident he sparyed a area and like the little kid i was i walked into it, bad mixture. 2nd time was about 4-5 years later and the same can no less i was over at my friends house and saw it picked it up and the nozzle was broken off so i assumed it wasn't going to work well guess what it did. the pepper pen blew up in my face and all over my shirt, my friends pitbull started to choke i was in alot of burning pain even though the can was 4+ years old and my friend went to the gas station. it was so strong that his mom was having trouble breathing upstairs because it made it way into the a/c. Tazer's tazers and tazer don't taze me bro not dont pepper me bro it was TAZE
     
  11. Sir Aardvark

    Sir Aardvark Member

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    I am a civilian, not LEO, and I have a CCW permit.

    I carry OC knowing full-well that I have a more potent back-up option that I can bring into play if my OC doesn't work.

    I would much rather have the option of using OC, than having to resort to shooting someone just because I have no other choice or tool available - and I'm not a big fan of going hand-to-hand with someone when I don't have to.


    Sorry to use such a worn-out cliche, but...

    If the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all your problems begin to look like nails.
     
  12. mercop

    mercop Member

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    So do you train to deploy your OC with your reaction side hand since you carry a pistol?
     
  13. Paul Gomez

    Paul Gomez Member In Memoriam

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    C'mon, George, you ignore how many pages of contradictory comments and then pop in to ask which hand he uses for his OC?

    You carry a gun, right? What hand do you use your street stick in?

    If OC is thought of and employed as 'eyejab in a can', the use of which buys the user a moment in time to begin changing the situation to his advantage, it really is hard to argue against.

    Of course, this assumes that the user has some capability to take advantage of that 'moment in time'.

    If the user believes the old marketing hype that OC will reduce the badguy to a squealing puddle begging for his mama, well then there is a different issue at play.
     
  14. RX-178

    RX-178 Member

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    I thought I'd start carrying OC spray in the past. This was a few years ago, I was 18 years old (now I'm far from an old fart NOW, and many people, myself included would still call me a 'kid', but 18 does feel like it was a long time ago) and in the middle of what I now call my 'Ninja phase'.

    I had taken martial arts classes of opportunity since I was 6 years old. Never thought SERIOUSLY about self defense, I just thought it was cool. By my mid teens, I started thinking everything related to self defense was awesome. Started taking more 'lethal' martial arts classes (Krav, Jeet Kune Do, Eskrima), and learning how to use weapons, such as machetes, knives, batons. Firearms, of course.

    OC spray just seemed like a logical thing to learn how to use to my Ninja-oriented mind. So I took a class that covered OC spray.

    After 3 lessons of that, I had firmly made up my mind never to carry OC spray. Most of the class was how to perform after having accidentally sprayed yourself, or having been otherwise exposed to the spray.

    One particularly sadistic exercise, goes as follows: You're given a little sheet of paper with a random sentence and/or a sequence of numbers on it. You're given a cell phone. You are then sprayed with OC, and you have to take out your phone, call 911 (the phone in the exercise is not actually functional, of course), and repeat whatever sentence/numbers were on the paper.

    I basically became so paranoid about being exposed to it by accident, that I decided never to carry it.
     
  15. 3KillerBs

    3KillerBs Member

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    Thanks for the links.
     
  16. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

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    I used OC aprox 20 times during the last few years on the job and it worked every time.Unfortunately it got me pretty good on 3 occasions because of backsplash.Once,a B&E suspect got away from me during a brief struggle,however I was able to get enough OC in his face,and he was found an hour later hiding behind some bushes trying to get over the effects.To me it is a viable backup.
     
  17. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    I am a fan of OC. I can see where it would deal with many if not most situations that I am likely to encounter if it can be deployed. I do carry a gun as well, but I would rather mace someone than 1.) shoot them 2.) beat their brains out.

    Assailants vs. Civilians are usually more like leopards vs. zebras. The perp watches, attacks from a vantage point / blind spot and doesn't want to get hurt or exert himself over much. Many people forget this. In order for a perp to "win" he has to attack, get his ill gotten gains, not get hurt and get away. That is more than a plan it is the de facto doctrine of the perps. That rarely faces the desperation and determined resistance that police encounter.

    These attacks do not compare with what police encounter. Bar fights or something akin to that might mimic more what the average policeman would see, but if you are already involved in an altercation, then you have lost already; that means that your plans of awareness, avoidance, de-escalation have failed and those are the MOST important tactics / weapons you employ.
     
  18. za73

    za73 Member

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    MerCop makes good points

    However, remember that OC's effect is sometimes lost upon the individual it is being used upon.

    I've been sprayed (in training) at least 2 dozen times. One can build a tolerance to it's effects, as I have.

    Additionally, individuals from South of the border, have a type of tolerance or natural resistance to standard issue OC. Freeze+P is a OC/CS product that is most effective on many individuals that don't respond to OC alone.

    I suspect that the more I am sprayed with that product, that I too, will develop a tolerance to it as well.
     
  19. mercop

    mercop Member

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    Gomez, my reason for asking is that I would imagine that the vast majority of the citizenry who carries OC in addition to a gun carries the OC strong side, especially because they may choose to carry it in the hand. I think it would take a good amount of training to drop the OC and transition to another tool. At least that has been my experience.

    If you choose to or have to carry OC in addition to your a firearm I teach that it be carried an the reaction side.

    Pbearperry, were any of those spontaneous situations or "your not taking me to jail" stand off type situations?
     
  20. ChCx2744

    ChCx2744 Member

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    Yes to all of these questions. In the academy we were required to get sprayed by 5 instructors simultaneously by sabre red SHU 3 million. After that we had to do weapon retention drill fights, run up and down a 100 yard range, shoot 3 targets with simunition rounds from 7 yards, handcuff a subject and then finally we were allowed to go to the hoses. Let me tell you, honestly...Washing the darn stuff off was the most unpleasant feeling throughout the whole training drill. You would think actually getting sprayed or the effects of the spray would be the worst...Nope. When time comes to de-contaminate yourself, that is when all hell saturates your face...sometimes for days at a time afterwards.

    This being the reason, I never EVER use OC on duty. Reasons:
    1) Depending on the enviornment (number of people around me, thier proximity to me/subject, breeze, etc.) Oleresin Capsicum may not even be an option.
    2) Again, the ASP (our issue collapsable) is by FAR a better UOF option after hard hands.

    Boy I tell you, even a LITTLE bit of this nasty trash on your body can make your life unpleasant for the next few days thereafter. I hate the stuff. The only time it will ever get deployed in my hands is when I follow the manufactuer's directions of "Test fire periodically to ensure proper function and familiarity of spray cone patterns." :barf::barf::barf::barf::barf:
     
  21. mercop

    mercop Member

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    Well said.
     
  22. Surat

    Surat Member

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    OC sucks. . .

    I absolutely love it when I get sprayed by my brother officers. Now that I think about it, I can't recall a time I didn't get sprayed/contaminated with the crap when it was used. You can decon your face all you like, just be careful when you take a shower later. . gravity is a cruel, cruel thing. :eek:Oh god, my junk is on FIRE!:eek:

    I've taken my can off my duty belt. I keep it in my "po-po" bag in the car, just in case I have some kind of giant melee.

    Hands, Taser, ASP. . . K9 backup,, all preferental to me over that spray can of hot sauce.
     
  23. mercop

    mercop Member

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    Surat, seems we have the same conclusions about Karate in a can.
     
  24. nate.45

    nate.45 Member

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    I don't mean to veer the thread off to far, but do any of you that are knowledgeable on OC spray, know if Pepper Foam works as well as regular spray? I've got a 2.36 oz can of Mace brand 10% Pepper Foam, it is supposed to cover someone's face with an inch deep layer and also dye their face purple, but I've never squirted any of it out to see.
     
  25. unreal45

    unreal45 Member

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    RX-178
    Have you considered a job in the field of mall security.
     
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