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N330, BA9 or something else

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Dudedog, Jul 10, 2018.

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N330, BA9 or somthing else

  1. N330

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. BA9

    3 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Something else

    8 vote(s)
    66.7%
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  1. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Really do love the way AA#2 meters, great for .380 size charges.

    Nice to know N330 works well for midrange .357, that might just give it a nod.:)

    And yes I have to try hard and have a good day to shoot the difference between loads that work well for me.
    Lots of them that are good enough, so I am not searching for something that will work I have it.
    Just want to play a bit.
    So leaning towards my usual WSF, Some W244, some Sport Pistol and some N330.
     
  2. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

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    If you like WSF in 9mm, and like that “push”, then you might want to consider N340 rather than N330. Powder valley finally got some N330 in and I’ve read it’s the cat’s meow for 9mm. I too can’t leave well enough alone, and just had to order some. I find it to be closer to PP’s snap without the flash. That’s with 124 and 147 RMR jacketed.

    N340 works well in the .45 too, but, I prefer WST for the .45.

    I’ve heard W244 holds some promise, and would like to try it. If you happen to get some please post your findings?
     
  3. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    N340 is great for "full power" 124/125 Gr bullets in 9MM. I don't push N330 hard enough to be snappy in 9MM. 124/125s at 1100ish from a 5" barrel with N330 is comfortable to shoot.(4.7 Grs with a Berrys 124 Gr HP @ 1.050 to 1.055 OAL) N340 can get that in a 3" barrel.
     
  4. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Will do,
    I can start it off now by saying, "If I could only shoot straight I might be able to tell how good this load really is":)

    Not after full power stuff, target vel is around 1030-1050 so thinking faster than N340 but something maybe a hiar slower than N320 so N330:D
     
  5. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

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    It's all relative! N340 sits just below WSF on the burn rate chart and per the OP:
    There are several more powders even slower, which I'd call "full power", in Vhit, like 3N37 or N350. There are other brands even slower.

    Felt recoil is subjective and the loads I've worked up I find N340 and WSF very similar. These are loads tending more towards competition or practice, usually a PF of 130-132, not necessarily SD or full power loads.
    For my P226, 124gr RMR HP, COL 1.140, 4.9 gr WSF runs 1064 and 5.0 gr N340 runs 1055, and 5.1 gr N330 run 1061. But the N330 just felt snappier in the hand, at least to me.

    I've not shortened any of these to the COL 1.050 you mention - I can see where you can run less powder with that COL and still get the velocity, I've just not explored that yet. The lowest COLs I've got with Vhit are at 1.120. This was to get a comfortable PF with N320, and, I also think the N330 was snappier than the N320. Again, just subjective.

    So, still not being satisfied with those results, I decided to start working up 147gr loads....
     
  6. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Burn rate charts are very relative. ;)

    Lot's of powders work for full power 9MM, no argument there, but that wasn't the question.
    At the same velocity/power level? I don't see how. Recoil will be slightly more simply because of the larger powder charge, but snappier?

    WSF is good stuff, but I just didn't buy more when I ran out. Silhouette replaced it and AA #5 for me.
     
  7. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Name RMR 125 MPR 4.4 WSF 1.08
    Notes N/A
    Number of Shots 10
    Extreme Spread 45
    Average 1052
    Standard Deviation 12
    Power Factor Average 131
    Power Factor Low 127
    Power Factor High 133
    Shot List Index Velocity Bullet Weight Ft/Lbs Power Factor
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 1 1027 124 290 127
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 2 1056 124 307 131
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 3 1054 124 306 131
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 4 1054 124 306 131
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 5 1041 124 298 129
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 6 1072 124 316 133
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 7 1062 124 311 132
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 8 1060 124 309 131
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 9 1059 124 309 131
    RMR 124 MPR 4.4 WSF 10 1041 124 298 129

    I fat fingered the bullet weight should be 125 not 124, sigh.....
    Started on a new lot of WSF, but it seems quite consistent lot to lot.

    Mixed range brass unknown # of reloads, S+B SP, charges as thrown after setting measure 5" 9mm 1911 (the 1026 and 1072 skewed the numbers but still a fair sample, throw them out and ES is 21 SD 8)
    In general my pistol(s) seem to prefer shorter OALs.
    I would need to check all of them but I know the MPRs won't plunk for me at 1.14 in one of my 9s and I like the ammo to work in all of them.
    WSF is good stuff.
     
  8. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Decided to go with W244, Sport Pistol some N330 (which I know may be hard to get in the future) and my current favorite WSF.
    I will post the results when I get the powder and have a chance to test.
    So many things to test so little time..........
    Retirement is in sight, if I have a good scope:)
     
    jell-dog likes this.
  9. lgbloader

    lgbloader Member

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    Hey everyone, Hey AC (walkalong)
    N330 is my go to for 9mm but I haven't been able to find it in California for the last I don't know how many years...
    I resorted to power pistol to save what little N330 I have left. But I think I'm gonna give some of these suggestions a go.
    Looks like I'll be picking up a can of Silhouette and WSF and dusting off the chrony... sounds like fun.

    Good to see some of the 'ole regulars still around. The thought of RC still stings

    LGB
     
    Walkalong likes this.
  10. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Powder Valley has N330 in stock.

    Haven't tested much with Silhouette but so far it is a thumbs up.
    WSF is my current favorite. 4.3-4,5 gr with a 125 makes a nice midrange load, not bad on the high end either, but not a much velocity as say CFE-P or BE86
    Please let us know how you like them.

    There is an adventure in every jar:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
    lgbloader and Walkalong like this.
  11. lgbloader

    lgbloader Member

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    I haven't been to powder Valley In over a year since I found a new local secret spot for powder and primers. But I see they got 4 lb. jugs which I am getting my credit card out for as I speak. Woohoo...

    LGB
     
  12. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Got my powder:)
    Some WSF (my current favorite for 9mm)
    Some W244, Sport Pistol, and VV330
    Still haven't really had a chance to test the Silhouette I got earlier so I'm not sure why I bought 3 more new ones but I will just attribute it to getting senile and call it done.
    I have a match this weekend so probably no testing until the weekend after.
    Will let everybody know how it goes.
    I like N320 in .45 so I will see how I like N330.
    Tests will be 9mm, then when I have a chance .45, then maybe .380 and .38/.357 when I get a chance. (hard to have fun testing when its 105+ outside, nice pleasant 93 when I got up at 5AM this morning-sun just coming up)
    Anyway here is a pic of the new ones and some old ones for comparison.
    AA#2 is of Nice and fine, love the way it meters. DSCF0084.JPG
    W244 looks a lot like HP38, Sport pistol maybe a little finer than W244 but not as fine as Silhouette (which also meters great)
    Had them laid out on paper a bit nicer but my dog, being the friendly helpful thing she is decided to assist me..........(she likes to help, usually at the wrong time)
    (Note, she messed up the VV330 the most not quite sure how she knew it was the most expensive)
    Not a great pic but if you zoom with your browser you can see them a bit better.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
    Walkalong likes this.
  13. ray15

    ray15 Member

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    Sport Pistol meters really well through my Auto Drum. Clearly better than Hodgdon powders like Titegroup and CFEP, and a bit better than BE86, which appears very similar physically. I measure quite a few charges until I'm sure the powder is packed and the drop setting correct, and with Sport Pistol it packs almost immediately and stabilizes at the same charge to the tenth of a grain on very nearly every drop. It also produces amazingly consistent velocities (single digit SD for any reasonable load in 9 or 40), which may be partly due to how well it meters.

    I've seen people say nearly every powder made meters well at one point or another, and although I'm a long way from having tried them all it's hard to imagine a better metering powder.
     
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  14. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    lgbloader, I forgot to say sorry for leading you into getting your credit card out
    but when the bill comes you can blame it on me:evil::)

    (I miss RC too, always enjoyed his posts, the time comes for us all sooner or later, all we can hope for is later)
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  15. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    I think a lot of folks do not do this, despite all the advise to run numerous charges through a measure to settle it down.
    I have not done a lot with Sport Pistol yet, but I have also noticed that some powders settle down fairly quickly, and some take quite a few charges before they do. Baffles help overall consistency as well.
     
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  16. ray15

    ray15 Member

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    I'm usually not far from the max charge on my favored loads, so I've got to have a good handle on my charging accuracy for safety reasons. I've noticed most people that post here favor mid-range loads that provide a greater margin of error. I try hard to minimize error in my process and use consistent brass and bullets. Unlike many reloaders I have quite a bit of respect for the engineering and consistency I see in most factory ammunition and seek to equal that in my own efforts.
    The Alliant powders I have, SP, BE86 and 2400 all settle quickly. I guess their kernel geometry is good for that. I use the swanky 3D printed baffles from Titan Reloading in my Auto Drums. A simpler one also works, but these just make me happy. I beat the hopper with the nearest hand tool before starting to get the majority of the settling done.

    https://www.titanreloading.com/titan-reloading-products/titan-round-powder-baffle
     
  17. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    I always give it a few taps, and sort of wiggle it around to help get things settled.
    Then I will throw some charges until they look stable, then throw a few more of the heck of it, then load.
    Usually for most chrono tests on 9mm/.45 pistol ammo I test the way I would load, mixed brass, set the measure, verify the charge as above, then load.
    I would get better numbers probably if I used same headstamp brass and weighed every charge but that's not the way I load most 9mm stuff so I want to see what I can expect form my loaded ammo.
    (not saying my way is right, what is right for me may not be for someone else, what's right for them may not be right for me)
    When I am loading a big run I use my lockout die and maybe check say every 20th one to make sure everything looks good.
    Would it be more accurate with same headstamp brass and each charge scaled, most likely, could I shoot the difference, maybe, maybe not.
    For sure not if I am shooting a USPSA match where I am running and gunning.

    If I am loading FP 9mm stuff I check charges more often.
    For some rifle I scale and trickle all charges, so I do weigh them all if I feel there is enough benefit.

    PS I use the time saved by not weighing every 9mm charge scrounging around the range to pick up 5 more 9mm cases to add to the 1000s I already have:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  18. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    I run most charges as an average. If I log 4.8, it is the average charge thrown. If I am up around max I log the weight and beside it I write "Max, not average" in the box next to the charge weight. If it isn't so marked, it is an average. I run at least ten charges through before weighing anything now, as experience has shown it is a waste of time to measure the first few. I tap the handle at the bottom of the stroke just a little each time which shakes the measure a tad. I have no sizing going on so a gentle tap of the handle is easy to replicate.
     
  19. ray15

    ray15 Member

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    I find by checking every 20th charge you will eventually get the powder completely settled and the drop adjusted to where you can achieve essentially as consistent of charges as checking each with a scale. I weigh every charge for the load development because I want to test the quality of the combination, not the limits of my process. If I find the production runs vary enough from the test loads to impact performance, I re-evaluate my production techniques.

    I also scrounge more 9mm brass than I can use, which is one thing that got me started sorting it. I'm only using the best of it, and some sorting has to take place to achieve that. It's a small leap to sorting it all by headstamp. But even that is imperfect, as there are usually at least two productions techniques used for each common headstamp, making scaling necessary to equal the consistency of the brass used in a lot of factory ammo.
     
  20. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

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    If we're talking about reloading.... I run a Hornady LNL powder measure, so my SOP is to fill the powder hopper full, then hand actuate the PTE linkage 50 times (we're still talking reloading here....), then an additional 20 times at press speed. Then I run a case in the press, and measure the next 5 drops to insure they're within my production limits. You can purchase powder metering inserts, which I have, one for each powder/weight combination. Some powders meter very well, by that I mean the drop deviations are within a half of a tenth. I've found the AA2/5, Titegroup, all the VVs, and Sport Pistol meter very well. WSF, WST, 231 and several others meter well, within a tenth. Then there's the Clays, IMR Target and Red, which I love, but, in that measure meter poorly. I have heard the Dillon measures love these, so, I may need to turn blue someday.

    Any 244 results yet? I just placed an order to PV since VV advertised 5$/pound rebate up to 60$. I felt the need to add 244 to the order so I'll get to craft some loads with that soon.

    I use my production press for load development, but I weigh every charge and measure every OAL, numbering the cartridges so when I test through the chrono, I know the velocity of each. I'll use single headstamp for development, run a small 10 group batch and see where the stats are. Once satisfied with a combination, I'll run a 100-200 batch, and redo the chrono work picking out a group of the same headstamp used for workup, and additionally a group with a mixed headstamp just to make sure they're making a comfortable PF, as I shoot mixed headstamp for matches. I do this with most pistol loads. And as you note, even the same headstamp doesn't guarantee a better set of stats. I suppose if someone knew the headstamp came from the same production lots, perhaps that'd help improve the stats, but, I've had cases where a group of mixed headstamps had better stats than the single headstamps. There's a probability for everything.
     
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  21. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    tsk tsk tsk, this is the reloading section, I maybe need to be a little more careful of my choice of words and phrasing :eek::D


    Ended up working part of the weekend so no range trip:thumbdown:

    Hopefully this weekend if I can get my new car out of the shop, in for the 4th time for the same problem, glad I bought a new one because I didn't want the old one in the shop.....:cuss:
    Plan on doing testing in 9mm with the W244, Sport Pistol, VV330 and Silhouette.
    Once I get the 9mm done, in .45 as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
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  22. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Not at the range:thumbdown: doing server updates today....someone else who was supposed to do them is "ill"..
    (takes a bit for 60+ servers,only positive is I can do them from home don't have to go to the office)

    A quick report from getting the ammo loaded.
    Sport Pistol
    Meters great, better than HP38 not quite as good as AA#2 but close.
    VV N330
    Meters great, better than HP38 not quite as good as AA#2. Maybe not quite as good as Sport Pistol but very good.
    W244
    Meters good, about the same as HP38/WSF

    Happy with the metering quality of all three of these.
     
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  23. CrankyCraig

    CrankyCraig Member

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    Can’t Wait to see your results!!
     
  24. CrankyCraig

    CrankyCraig Member

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    Dude dog I found some sport pistol over the weekend in a small hardware store that had more powder than a Cabela’s!! I was good only came home with 3lbs & 2k primers.

    I understand the working on the weekend:(
     
  25. Dudedog

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Cool, Sport Pistol seems to meter really well.

    I like to support my local stores if it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg.
    An arm or a leg ok but not both.
     
    CrankyCraig likes this.
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