Hurryin' Hoosier
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Fear of lead poisoning is precisely why I no longer catch bullets in my teeth. 
NBC article about dangers of lead to people, specifically children, from shooting
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OH_Spartan
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Can anyone link to any scientific studies on lead impacts? Measuring ground water or surface run off from outdoor ranges? Lead concentrations in the air at indoor ranges...AND...coupling these with elevated blood levels of workers, neighbors, etc.....AND....link to adverse health effects such as birth defects, fertility rates, etc.
This country has discharged a lot of lead a lot of ways. we figured out real quick that eating paint chips qas a bad idea. It seems to me that if there is a link the researchers would have to spend enormous amounts of money finding it.
This country has discharged a lot of lead a lot of ways. we figured out real quick that eating paint chips qas a bad idea. It seems to me that if there is a link the researchers would have to spend enormous amounts of money finding it.
guyfromohio
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So where exactly does lead come from? Could it be.........the ground?
RustyShackelford
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A grain of truth....
Post #16 has a grain of truth.
Today's media(digital, TV, etc) is ad driven & profit based.
There are many examples of media misconduct or a lack of fairness/honesty but there are also times where the press or a single TV/media reporter goes in depth to display a serious problem or fraud/waste/abuse.
Columnists are often the most off base or wrong about 2A issues.
But they can claim to be expressing opinions not researched data or facts.
Last week, I was in touch with a local media wag who griped about the lack of political support for "universal background checks". I emailed him to explain how 1000s of law abiding honest citizens pay $$$ for background checks or fingerprint cards/E prints then get CCW licenses.
The police/sheriffs used to have in service training & resources for the sworn personnel but cut the program(to teach or update gun/concealed carry laws). Is that fair?
The columnist sent a flip reply claiming to know about the state CCW license process & the fees but not the law enforcement training or standards.
Post #16 has a grain of truth.
Today's media(digital, TV, etc) is ad driven & profit based.
There are many examples of media misconduct or a lack of fairness/honesty but there are also times where the press or a single TV/media reporter goes in depth to display a serious problem or fraud/waste/abuse.
Columnists are often the most off base or wrong about 2A issues.
But they can claim to be expressing opinions not researched data or facts.
Last week, I was in touch with a local media wag who griped about the lack of political support for "universal background checks". I emailed him to explain how 1000s of law abiding honest citizens pay $$$ for background checks or fingerprint cards/E prints then get CCW licenses.
The police/sheriffs used to have in service training & resources for the sworn personnel but cut the program(to teach or update gun/concealed carry laws). Is that fair?
The columnist sent a flip reply claiming to know about the state CCW license process & the fees but not the law enforcement training or standards.
HoosierQ
Member
I've got two buddies that were going shooting indoors a couple of times each week. The one guy was a big fisherman and was looking at expanding his outdoor activities. Shooting seemed perfect.
Sadly he got sick. They tried and tried to figure out what it was and finally found lead poisoning. He was put off shooting more or less for good...sold his gun. The other fellow is no way ever going to quite shooting but he sure as heck stopped going to that indoor range!
FWIW I don't think the specific source of the lead poisoning was pinpointed. As a fisherman...a SERIOUS fisherman...I wonder how many lead sinkers he pinched closed on a line with his teeth during his lifetime.
Lead has played havoc with several industries. Lead is one that we will have a hard time fighting and winning I fear.
Sadly he got sick. They tried and tried to figure out what it was and finally found lead poisoning. He was put off shooting more or less for good...sold his gun. The other fellow is no way ever going to quite shooting but he sure as heck stopped going to that indoor range!
FWIW I don't think the specific source of the lead poisoning was pinpointed. As a fisherman...a SERIOUS fisherman...I wonder how many lead sinkers he pinched closed on a line with his teeth during his lifetime.
Lead has played havoc with several industries. Lead is one that we will have a hard time fighting and winning I fear.
jcwit
member
Frankly I believe our indoor ranges need to upgrade their air filtration systems.
Many are using systems installed decades ago. There is newer systems with much better technology.
Many are using systems installed decades ago. There is newer systems with much better technology.
blarby
Member
Most news of this ilk is only dangerous when in small doses, over long periods of time....
Agreed. Unlike "the thing that goes up" or "one-time use magazines", the reason we still use lead comes down to one basic reason : cost.
Price any proven performing bullet with a lead core VS a proven performing non-lead bullet, and you'll notice why this substance is so attractive.
With the lead bans going full swing in the largest economy in the US, and that nonsense spreading northward up the west coast, if you can't read the writing on this one- get your eyes checked.
Cost isn't a really good leg to stand on in either the court of public opinion when it comes to "public safety", or the actual courts. Sucks, but its the truth.
However, until lead is banned in all of its other uses besides bullets, it isn't going away. ( they did start by the way, for all of you who pickup wheelweights, you understand. Thank CA, AGAIN )
Where it will be able to be used is another question entirely. Much like smoking in bars, the argument of " well, we're doing what we want to do, and its dangerous to us anyway" argument isn't going to hold much water in the "public" range department. Mark my words, the tobacco verbiage will be retooled and will replace "tobacco" with "lead".
Sadly, I fully expect to see a complete ban on the sporting/hunting use of lead in my lifetime. Yep, this includes fishing weights. As it pertains to shooting sports, I can easily see lead bullets being able to be used only on strictly private property.
My last glimmering hope was that the muzzleloaders and other vintage hunters in CA this season would provide catastrophic examples of why the NTX/Bismuth mix bullets weren't going to work. Unfortunately, due to the surge in popularity of this hunting style in deference to the difficulty of finding suitable game pre-rut, the results for CA are looking pretty good. You have a lot of people- especially new shooters, reporting good results. Thats bad for lead. The bullets perform well, albeit at astronomical cost. With the advent of low-speed deployable all-copper non-saboted (and saboted, hard to seat though) muzzleloading projectiles, that area is a pretty much non-starter.
Don't know how it'll play out, I don't have a crystal ball. Not sure how it'll effect all of the match and action-pistol shooters out there.
The one thing I do know is that the forecast problems with lead were sufficient enough to deter me from a long term project involving lead projectiles, and that was really heartbreaking.
However, they'll take my moulds from my cold dead hands.
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Not everyone with elevated lead levels gets reported to a Government database. I share the same General Practitioner with a guy who works at an indoor range. He has elevated, 20 and above, lead levels.
For those who don't think lead is dangerous, suck on lead sinkers as a cure for eating munchies or smoking tobacco. Feel the urge for a sweet, or a smoke, pop the sinker in your mouth and roll it around till the urge goes away.
If lead is benign and harmless, nothing will happen. Has to be better than lung cancer or high cholesterol.
Tell us what happens.
For those who don't think lead is dangerous, suck on lead sinkers as a cure for eating munchies or smoking tobacco. Feel the urge for a sweet, or a smoke, pop the sinker in your mouth and roll it around till the urge goes away.
If lead is benign and harmless, nothing will happen. Has to be better than lung cancer or high cholesterol.
Tell us what happens.
alsaqr
Member
Good post.
i've had lead poisoning. Lead poisoning's primary effect on me: It made me irritable and mean.
Been doing EOD/UXO stuff in the US Army and as a civilian for over 50 years. Burned hundreds of millions, maybe a few billion, rounds of small arms ammo; mostly in open pits. i destroyed the US Army unserviceable ammo from Desert Storm. Decided to clean out and reuse the small arms burn pits: Wrong answer. To make a very long story short, i got lead poisoning from breathing lead dust while cleaning out the burn pits.
One of the gents at this link is an authority on lead poisoning:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553336&highlight=lead+poisoning
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RustyShackelford
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Post #31.....
I agree with #31.
The Times article points out that a few states or municipalities have no employee health standards or regular inspections.
I have not worked on any ranges or exposed to huge amounts of lead/ammunition but I looked into the new Bakken Oil Field jobs in South Dakota(Bismark, Williston, etc).
1000s of people are rushing up to that remote area to work in the industry.
I could see doing that work for maybe 18mo to 24mo but I would not be up there permanently or even long term.
The fumes, toxins, water, soil, snow-rain, etc may cause a - health effect or serious illness later.
I agree with #31.
The Times article points out that a few states or municipalities have no employee health standards or regular inspections.
I have not worked on any ranges or exposed to huge amounts of lead/ammunition but I looked into the new Bakken Oil Field jobs in South Dakota(Bismark, Williston, etc).
1000s of people are rushing up to that remote area to work in the industry.
I could see doing that work for maybe 18mo to 24mo but I would not be up there permanently or even long term.
The fumes, toxins, water, soil, snow-rain, etc may cause a - health effect or serious illness later.
herrwalther
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OH_Spartan said:
Most of the "lead is bad for you mmmkay" media spin comes from studies started in the 70's about children eating paint chips in window sills and whatnot having lower brain function from lead poisoning. Tons of stuff started becoming "lead free" even when the impact was minimal on health. Places like California ban lead ammo for hunting to avoid lead contamination from consumed animals, what it really did was drive up the cost of ammo.
Living memory has its limitations, hardly anyone is around who was an adult before 1900. In fact, might be no one. Lead toxicity has been recognized for a very long time. Lead poisoning is one of the oldest recognized industrial poisons.
Lead toxicity recognized in this 1911 Industrial Labor standard.
Bulletin of the Bureau of Labor, Issues 94-96 , pages 166 and 167
http://books.google.com/books?id=8c...EdbNWa60HEk481-PwNww&ci=48,61,857,1514&edge=0
Iron Sight
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If you or someone you know is concerned about lead poisoning probably you should arrange to get tested.
Hardtarget
Member
Really...what a pile of horse****!
Think about it. How many people die all across Europe every year from lead poison?
Think of all the wars that area has seen. Go back to about 1700 and think of all the lead shot from muskets. Then get into WWI and WWII.
Then, our own Civil War !
How many tons of lead have been shot across the country side?
Good grief!
Mark
Think about it. How many people die all across Europe every year from lead poison?
Think of all the wars that area has seen. Go back to about 1700 and think of all the lead shot from muskets. Then get into WWI and WWII.
Then, our own Civil War !
How many tons of lead have been shot across the country side?
Good grief!
Mark
RustyShackelford
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Not cheap....
About 2mo ago I did a brief security detail(20 hrs) in a dentist's office that had a chemical leak. There were no health risks or odors. The dentist had the air quality tested & all the clinic's HVAC filters replaced.
I had no problems or complaints working there. They needed security due to the open doors & no security alarms.
I noticed how the staff used a high tech air purifier.
I checked on Sam's Club & a few other sites for these air cleaners/filters.
They are not cheap.
I still want one but if I had a indoor range or small business that would be a expense.
About 2mo ago I did a brief security detail(20 hrs) in a dentist's office that had a chemical leak. There were no health risks or odors. The dentist had the air quality tested & all the clinic's HVAC filters replaced.
I had no problems or complaints working there. They needed security due to the open doors & no security alarms.
I noticed how the staff used a high tech air purifier.
I checked on Sam's Club & a few other sites for these air cleaners/filters.
They are not cheap.
I still want one but if I had a indoor range or small business that would be a expense.
alsaqr
Member
The NIH did a study of lead poisoning deaths in the US for the period 1979-1998: About 200 folks died of lead poisoning during that time period. Almost one-third of the lead poisoning deaths were attributed to drinking moonshine. Drinking moonshine, you say? Some moonshine makers still use lead solder joints or run moonshine through condensers made from old auto radiators.
Learned about the dangers of lead poisioning from moonshine while stationed at Ft. Bragg in the late 50s-early 60s. The US Alcohol and Tobacco Division of the US Treasury Dep't distributed flyers warning of the dangers of drinking moonshine. Every year a few Ft. soldiers died from drinking lead contaminated moonshine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12584008
Anyone remember the Rebok trinket that killed a child:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11974094/...alth/t/reebok-bracelets-recalled-lead-danger/
Learned about the dangers of lead poisioning from moonshine while stationed at Ft. Bragg in the late 50s-early 60s. The US Alcohol and Tobacco Division of the US Treasury Dep't distributed flyers warning of the dangers of drinking moonshine. Every year a few Ft. soldiers died from drinking lead contaminated moonshine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12584008
Anyone remember the Rebok trinket that killed a child:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11974094/...alth/t/reebok-bracelets-recalled-lead-danger/
HoosierQ
Member
A bit of a rant but frankly one very much on point! Indoor shooting ranges aside, bullets are responsible for very little lead in the environment. Paint, plumbing, and industrial application has certainly poisoned a dramatically greater number of people that bullets.
I shoot predominately in an indoor range and my lead number was 33. Normal is bet. 6 to 10. I started wearing a mask and it went down to 7. I also started using totally jacketed bullets which reduce the lead vapor in the air. It's not the dire health risk the NBC is making it out to be. Children should definitely wear masks if shooting indoors. Lead poisoning is way worse for developing kids.
Schwing
Member
Most likely, I am going to be wildly unpopular in this thread but I didn't disagree with this article and I question whether many of the folks posting here even bothered to read it. Forgive my long rant but this is an issue I have researched ad-nausea and have extensive personal experience with. Here goes...
I think as a shooting community, it makes us look silly to claim some of the things I am reading here. Lead, along with most heavy metals, is a serious toxin. Yes, many folks essentially wallow in it their entire lives without having issues but, many others absorb it more easily and suffer from it whether they know it is the cause or not. Yes, it came from the ground but very little, if any, existed in our environment until we started mining it a few thousand years ago. I would also add that arsenic occurs naturally but that doesn't make it benign either.
Lead replaces other metals like iron zinc and calcium in the body. It impacts proteins that cause certain genes to turn on and off by displacing other metals in the molecules. This changes the shape of the protein molecule causing all kinds of havoc in the body. This can severely increase blood pressure. It also impairs heme production causing anemia. Lead displaces calcium in the reactions that transmit electrical impulses in the brain. Basically, it slows down how quickly your brain can function and literally can make you stupid. In kids, this is permanent. These are known facts, not speculation. On the speculation side, it is widely believed that the gene damage done by lead also leads to cancer, nerve damage and has even been linked to less known diseases like MS and ALS.
I have struggled with elevated lead levels for a few years now and can tell you from first hand experience that it can and does cause problems, even in adults and even at lower levels that people don't expect. I won't bore you with my history but basic precautions like hand washing and not eating at the range don't cut it for me. There has been very little research done as to why some folks don't absorb it and some do but I have accepted the fact that I do. These days, I never shoot at indoor ranges. Even outdoors, I wear a lead/asbestos mask and keep my hands clean. I look like a tool but how many of us wore ear protection 30 years ago? I don't think my family even owned any back then.
Since I had my issues, I have had several other shooting buddies get tested. Most have zero lead. A couple have been through the roof and have been grateful they got tested. One of them was higher than I was and had zero symptoms too. We are all different and we all have slightly different body chemistry. The bottom line is that you don't know whether the precautions you are taking are sufficient until you get tested and, if you are being exposed, you don't know what the long term effects are going to be until they happen.
As shooters, we need to be aware of facts, not anecdotal stories. Do the anti's use stories like this to further their agenda? They absolutely do but they also use just about every method they can to make us look like dumb uneducated hicks. In my opinion, putting our back up against the wall and making statements about the benign nature of lead does far more to make us look bad than articles like this one. On the other hand, openly recognizing the danger lead poses while clearly demonstrating that it can be handled and used safely kind of takes the steam out of the argument.
I think as a shooting community, it makes us look silly to claim some of the things I am reading here. Lead, along with most heavy metals, is a serious toxin. Yes, many folks essentially wallow in it their entire lives without having issues but, many others absorb it more easily and suffer from it whether they know it is the cause or not. Yes, it came from the ground but very little, if any, existed in our environment until we started mining it a few thousand years ago. I would also add that arsenic occurs naturally but that doesn't make it benign either.
Lead replaces other metals like iron zinc and calcium in the body. It impacts proteins that cause certain genes to turn on and off by displacing other metals in the molecules. This changes the shape of the protein molecule causing all kinds of havoc in the body. This can severely increase blood pressure. It also impairs heme production causing anemia. Lead displaces calcium in the reactions that transmit electrical impulses in the brain. Basically, it slows down how quickly your brain can function and literally can make you stupid. In kids, this is permanent. These are known facts, not speculation. On the speculation side, it is widely believed that the gene damage done by lead also leads to cancer, nerve damage and has even been linked to less known diseases like MS and ALS.
I have struggled with elevated lead levels for a few years now and can tell you from first hand experience that it can and does cause problems, even in adults and even at lower levels that people don't expect. I won't bore you with my history but basic precautions like hand washing and not eating at the range don't cut it for me. There has been very little research done as to why some folks don't absorb it and some do but I have accepted the fact that I do. These days, I never shoot at indoor ranges. Even outdoors, I wear a lead/asbestos mask and keep my hands clean. I look like a tool but how many of us wore ear protection 30 years ago? I don't think my family even owned any back then.
Since I had my issues, I have had several other shooting buddies get tested. Most have zero lead. A couple have been through the roof and have been grateful they got tested. One of them was higher than I was and had zero symptoms too. We are all different and we all have slightly different body chemistry. The bottom line is that you don't know whether the precautions you are taking are sufficient until you get tested and, if you are being exposed, you don't know what the long term effects are going to be until they happen.
As shooters, we need to be aware of facts, not anecdotal stories. Do the anti's use stories like this to further their agenda? They absolutely do but they also use just about every method they can to make us look like dumb uneducated hicks. In my opinion, putting our back up against the wall and making statements about the benign nature of lead does far more to make us look bad than articles like this one. On the other hand, openly recognizing the danger lead poses while clearly demonstrating that it can be handled and used safely kind of takes the steam out of the argument.
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