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NC Gun Law Knowledge Wanted

Discussion in 'Legal' started by jrpeppers, Jun 30, 2009.

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  1. jrpeppers

    jrpeppers Member

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    I just recently bought my first handgun, a S&W .40 Sigma Series, and I'm hooked. I just bought a Fobus paddle holster w/ Level 2 thumb break retention (mainly for range use). I definitely plan on building a hand gun collection, but I am currently waiting for my FL CCW to arrive in the mail, should come in about a month, as I am in the military stationed in NC.

    What's the deal with open carry, both in and out of vehicle? Thanks for the help.
     
  2. anewconvert

    anewconvert Member

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    yeah, both in and out, but you are going to get some funny looks if you take your gun anywhere open carrying in a larger city.

    Just remember, if you get pulled over before you stop take your gn out from wherever its hiding at and put it on the front seat (passeneger seat or on the dash if you have a rider with you) until you get your ccw. Had a co-worker get arrested because she didn't take her gun out from under her seat. LEO even told her as they booked her for having an illegally concealed weapon that if she had put it on her seat before he came to the door she wouldn't have been arrested.

    If you are in fayetteville or jacksonville you PROBABLY wont get such a funny look. Thems backwards peoples ;)
    BC
     
  3. Fumbler

    Fumbler Member

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    Open carry is legal as far as state laws go. In a car that means setting in the seat next to you in plain view or on the dash.

    Check your local laws though. Some municipalities (ie Cary) outlaw open carry.
    If you're in Fayettenam, Jacksonville, or Goldsboro you won't get too many weird looks.

    Just be sensible about open carrying. If someone freaks out just because they see a gun then you can be charged with "going armed to the terror of the people" even if you're not breaking any other law.
     
  4. SCKimberFan

    SCKimberFan Member

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    Provide proof please.



    jrpeppers: Here is a copy of NC Gun Laws. You can print it and read it at your leisure.

    http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

    Google is your friend. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2009
  5. c5_nc

    c5_nc Member

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    There was a recent case locally of the "going armed to the terror of the people" the person was not arrested but was carrying in a waffle house, waitress just asked if they were a cop (probably just making small talk), then police were called. The person was not arrested, but I wouldn't want to be pulled out of a resturant by police, and handcuffed while police questioned me. While your unlikely to get convicted of GATTOTP while open carry, there is always the chance to be hassled about it, questioned, or even arrested. Only several cities have no-display laws, NC in generall is pretty friendly about open carry. In vechicles it is recommended you open carry by placing your firearm on top of passenger seat, console, or dash while not covered. Otherwise it needed to be where it can be accessed quickly, like trunk, or in back in a gun case. Places like "open on the backseat" are gray areas, you could get charged but likely will not be convicted, if the officer could see it a court may find it to be "open" for that reason.
     
  6. jrpeppers

    jrpeppers Member

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    Good info guys. Thanks alot. Just to clarify, I don't want to just walk around everywhere with a gun on my hip, that's just asking for trouble. I was just talking about to and from the range mainly but if I make a stop in between now I feel a little better about it.

    Any recommendations for the best Concealed Carry Handgun. I was thinking S&W snub nose .38? Oh yeah, KimberFan, thanks for the link.
     
  7. nbkky71

    nbkky71 Member

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    I'm sure you're already aware of this jrpeppers, but the state laws concerning open and concealed carry ususally no longer apply when you are on-post. Not sure where you're stationed, but be sure to check with the post CO or provost marshal regarding possesion and transport.
     
  8. JustinW

    JustinW Member

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    One thing I will add. "No Concealed Carry" signs have the force of law for CCW holders who are carrying concealed. NC law does not specify anything other than this and it is generally agreed that you can't get in legal trouble for ignoring signs if you OC but AFAIK there has not been a test case. So I personally avoid posted businesses but you SHOULD be fine (legally) if you ignore them. That is not to say that the police might not try and pin a bogus charge on you, harass you, or otherwise discourage you from exercising your rights within the boundaries of the law. (P.S. If someone is going to disagree with this statement please provide relevant citation of laws on the books to back up your claims as I have searched the NC state statutes and could not find a single thing. Again that is not to say you can't or won't be charged with some bogus or "catch all" charge such as GATTOP.)

    It is also generally accepted/believed that part of Cary's no OC ordinance (on town/city streets, sidewalks and other "common" areas) is in violation of the NC constitution and state preemption laws and thus unenforceable. Recently (June 13th) there was an OC meeting at the Crazy Fire in Cary. I wasn't there but there was no mention of anyone being harassed or cops called on the group that ate there but again AFAIK there has not been a case to decide if Cary's laws are enforceable.

    There is also a ordinance on the books for Chapel Hill (I think it is CH not Durham) where if you OC your barrel and/or your gun's OAL has to be a minimum of some number of inches. I don't remember exactly but most all full size guns with >5" barrels should meet that requirement. IIRC my full size PT-92 does so this may or may not be an issue for you.

    Also be aware that if asked to leave you need to comply with the private property owners request else you can be charged with trespassing if you OC and they don't like it.

    There is also a lot of information on the NC forum of OCDO (Open Carry dot Org) (www.opencarry.org) located at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum41/.

    Disclaimer: IANAL so consult your lawyer for real advise. I just read and interpret the law on my own so the legal scholars (and Judges, DA, and the Cops) may have a different interpretation of the law and may apply the law differently.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2009
  9. AirForceShooter

    AirForceShooter Member

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    NC is a pain to carry in.
    It's no longer a southern state. Especially around Charlotte.

    AFS
     
  10. Fumbler

    Fumbler Member

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    In the link you provided, it says:

    Now, it says "for the purpose of terrifying others."
    This is where the gray area is. If you open carry and someone freaks out then the questions is whether you did it on purpose or not. For most of us who carry guns, I don't think it would be difficult to convince the police that you're a law abiding citizen.
    However, if you're dressed like a thug and acting like one, it would be hard to convince the police that you are a law abiding citizen.

    Again, just use common sense.

    I'm not sure if you're correct on this because the link SCKimberFan provided says:

    On the street = publicly owned grounds.
     
  11. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    I'd be very leery about taking the weapon from under the seat after you were stopped. If the officer sees you pulling a gun from concealment, you are not only going to be busted for having it concealed, but you could conceivably be shot for "pulling a gun" if the officer starts from wrong impressions.

    Basically, if you're transporting it in the vehicle, KEEP it in plain view, not "hidden until an officer pulls me over."

    Alas, NC's gun laws are VERY southern; they are a legacy of Jim Crow, including the go-get-written-permission-from-a-white-man-in-order-to-buy-a-handgun law, which was intended to intimidate people of color from buying handguns. The sheriff can deny you the right to buy a gun if he considers you "not of good moral character," which means anything he wants it to mean.

    I'd much rather NC be like Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, or Pennsylvania on the gun issue, but alas, it's not yet...GRNC is doing good work, though.
     
  12. anewconvert

    anewconvert Member

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    Wasn't advocating concealing a weapon in your car while not having a ccw, but if you do reaching under your seat (carefully) before pulling the car over and placing it on the seat next to you is probably better than being arrested. Doing after LEO has exited the vehicle and is walking to you is agreebly stupid.


    BC
     
  13. JustinW

    JustinW Member

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    I'm going to have to disagree with that Fumbler. I believe you are quoting subsection F, which I have pasted in it's entirety below and it is different that the version you posted which gives it a slightly different, yet important meaning.
    For those who don't immediately spot the difference it is that municipalities/counties can only regulate possession on the grounds and parking areas of public-owned buildings, not that they can regulate possession on/in publicly owned buildings or grounds as was initially quoted.

    For anyone wanting to read the full preemption statute for NC and confirm my quote you can see it at http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_53B.html

    Now for the GATOP charge. I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me Fumbler. It looks like we are agreeing with each other that you should be fine but you may still be harassed. I personally don't think you'll get in trouble and I don't personally think it is against the law based on MY interpretation of the law but use common sense and discretion. That's why I initially said you could be hit with a BS charge but you should be fine legally.

    Again, AFAIK there is no case law or precedent set for these scenarios so you will need to use your own judgment as to what do in the "gray" areas.

    (Yes I put gray in quotes; the laws read pretty plainly to me and seem clear, but as we've seen with the 2nd amendment the law may be (mis)interpreted differently by the LEOs and the legal system so use your noodle when deciding what to do and be aware of the consequences of your actions and accept responsibility for them.)

    As an aside: If people are so scared of guns that they freak out when they see you or me OCing why don't they freak out when they see a cop with their bat belt with even more weapons? I submit that this is evidence that they aren't afraid of people lawfully carrying firearms (or other weapons) in public but instead they are afraid of something that they aren't familiar with or that is out of the ordinary for them: John Q. Public having the means to protect him(her)-self. Thus it is my OPINION you shouldn't be charged with GATTOP as you carrying your weapon isn't inciting their terror/fear, it is the fact that they are seeing something not normally seen that is causing their fear/terror (unless of course you are committing some other crime that would incite fear or terror, like pointing the gun at someone or shooting at random people/objects, etc. but in that case GATTOP would be an add-on charge). BTW, this is one of, if not the grayest area in NC law regarding firearms IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  14. jrpeppers

    jrpeppers Member

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    Well said, Justin. Or maybe John Q. Public is so ignorant that when he sees a private citizen OCing, Public assumes he is some guy with minimal or no training that somehow thinks he's a cowboy or a hero, and in fact that is what "terrifies" the public.

    I open carried on the way to the range yesterday, so I was only out of my car at my apartment's parking lot and at the range, and I still managed to get a look and a question out of my neighbor.

    "What do you need a gun for?" she said. Attempting to avoid confrontation, I held my tongue and said I just like to shoot. The funny thing is she knows I'm an MP in the Marine Corps......hmmm, why do I like guns.
     
  15. JustinW

    JustinW Member

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    Actually now that you mention it I think that is more likely than the reason I proposed. My wife doesn't like me to OC and she stated the same reasoning, that she thought I was a showoff and wanted to play cop. The fact is I just want to avoid trouble all that much more when I carry as I would rather avoid the consequences of using deadly force unless I absolutely have to. And from what I can tell that is the same with (virtually) everyone that carries (responsibly).

    Now the question for me is as follows: Is it my problem or am I breaking the law because someone else has an irrational (to me) fear? I would hope not but the GATTOP is worded very vaguely and thus has the potential for problems. What if I am OCD and am afraid of germs? Should there be a law to protect me from people that try to shake my hands as they would incite fear and terror in me? Could GATTOP be used to get them for trying to shake my hand and making me terrified? You could argue that there are biological agents on their hands and we all know that biological weapons contain biological agents and both should be considered unusual and dangerous weapons. Using this line of thinking you could make an argument that someone should be charged with GATTOP for trying to shake my hand since I'm OCD and deathly afraid of germs.
    (No I'm not OCD. This was just a quick example to highlight my point that other people's fears about what might happen shouldn't be turned into law, and especially not a poorly worded vague law such as GATTOP).

    [Slightly off topic OC related discussion below]

    When asked why I carry my response is usually "just in case" or some variation of that. If they want a more detailed explanation I can spend as long as needed or that I/they have time for explaining my rational, giving examples of real life events, and some hypothetical scenarios. I haven't used this line yet but I think it would work well on any rational thinking human when asked why I carry: "To defend myself from those that would harm me. Do you have the means to defend yourself if someone should decide to inflict great bodily harm on you or try to kill you?" or some variation thereof. If they respond that they feel that it is unlikely that they should need to defend themselves there are plenty of follow up statements/questions to ask them to get them to give their personal safety some though such as "while my risk of having such an encounter is indeed small the consequences of not being able to defend myself far outweigh the trouble of having the means to defend myself readily available." I doubt any reasonable person will have a hard time agreeing with this statement at which point if the conversation continues you can discuss that it is just a way of managing your risks. You can then go on to say that risk management is a personal decision and you have decided that the risk of being unarmed is not worth the reward of not being inconvenienced but that for you the reward of being able to defend yourself far outweighs the risk of being singled out, discriminated against, or given a hard time.

    So the point of my conversations is not to convince someone to see things my way or to convert them. It is to get them to think about some of the things that got me to carry. And once they consider some of those questions/scenarios then it at least shows them that I am not a cowboy or wanna-be LEO but instead a very rational thinking human who has given this choice a lot of thought, which should put most people at ease. Hopefully it will also get them to accept guns as a regular tool and normal object instead of them being a social stigma as I feel that they are now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  16. jorb

    jorb Member

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    On Fort Bragg you can only carry on post if going directly to and from the range. No interim stops at all.
     
  17. jrpeppers

    jrpeppers Member

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    To carry on base at MCAS Cherry Point, is ridiculous. You have to have the weapon in a locked compartment (i.e. trunk) or hard case, the ammo in a separate compartment (like the glove box), and the magazines in a separate compartment from that (center console or passenger compartment.) It doesn't matter which compartment each component is in they just have to be separate. If the gun is in the passenger compartment it must be on the passenger seat or dashboard, no where else, unless locked in a hard case then it can be anywhere in it's own compartment. CCW definitely does not apply.
     
  18. dullh

    dullh Member

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    I think NC recognizes a Florida CCW permit, but only as long as the holder is a Florida resident. NC does not issue to non-residents. I don't know of a military base anywhere that allows CCW or open carry. When you're on base you're subject to whatever the base commander says is the law. When you're off base - carry openly at your own risk. Lots of anti-gun sheep roaming this state so you're likely to have the cops called on you.

    Also keep in mind that while some states make exception for military/government regardless, NC does not. Military can carry concealed around the state only while on official business says the law. Simply being in the military does not allow you to carry concealed.

    NC has swung hard to the left in recent years; all these transplants bring their liberal stupidity with them when they move here. It's especially prevalent where I live here in the western end of the state. In fact, I heard on a local radio station (570 WWNC) just yesterday that the vast majority of newly registered voters here in the last five years were democrat (49% compared to 32% republican). These transplants have queered our traditionally conservative base.

    Anymore, the fact is you won't know if what you're doing is illegal until you're approached by a cop and possibly hauled in and inconvenienced for a while, until they decide you're not in violation and let you go.

    I'm a resident with a CCW permit and I haven't had any trouble, but then again in NC there are so many places you can not carry that a CCW permit here is almost worthless.

    Remember one other thing -the legal advice you get on an internet message board is worth exactly what you're paying for it - get it? It's mostly conjecture and it won't hold up if you get into trouble, so take it with a grain of salt.

    I would say ask a cop or attorney but the fact is most cops don't understand the laws they're paid to enforce and most lawyers are no more knowledgable of gun laws than cops are.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2009
  19. jrpeppers

    jrpeppers Member

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    FL and NC both honor the other's CCW through reciprocity and I am a FL resident. I was just trying to get the local gen pop's opinion, via message board. As I said I am an MP so I am very familiar with Military Law and State Law that applies to my job. Most of the information provided by credible sources on here i.e. Fumbler, SCKimberfan, JustinW have been verified through some civilian LEOs that work with on a day to day basis. Thanks for your information and conern.
     
  20. dullh

    dullh Member

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    Well, since I live here and have had a CCW permit since NC started issuing them in 1995, I would have a reasonable idea of which I speak. I personally don't consider anything I see on the internet to be true unless it comes from an official website; I also don't consider the writings of posters on internet boards, people who I don't personally know, to be "credible sources". That's why I said the legal advice you get on an internet message board is worth what you're paying for it - not trying to be cute or facetious, just trying to get you to realize that while well intentioned, the information may be wrong so use at your own risk. Nothing more.

    Also, since North Carolina is a "preemption" state, the same laws apply whether you're in Waynesville or Jacksonville - there are no "local" gun laws in this state. Governments below the state level are not allow to pass gun laws, hence the term "preemption". Even though I am 450 miles away, that would make me "local gen pop" for this discussion.

    "AirForceShooter" has it right - North Carolina is no longer a southern state where pretty much anything is concerned. We have New England-style taxes on everything, CCW is restricted everywhere, etc. I have lived in this state for 29 years (minus the 5 years I was enlisted in the military) and I have watched it go from bad to worse.

    If you don't like what I am saying, you don't have to read it...stick with your "credible sources" and ignore me.
     
  21. WNC Seabee

    WNC Seabee Member

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    dullh....I'm one of those transplants of which you speak and I agree with you. NC is not what I expected when I moved here ~6 years ago. Very left leaning in many ways.

    Hopefully I helped soften the blow by voting conservative and bringing my own job (plus added a couple to the local base) with me!
     
  22. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    OC is a gray area here because of that derned "going armed to the terror of the people."

    I know of some folks nearby that OCed, and were arrested because of it. I dont know them, so I dont know if any charges were filed.

    Don't ask cops for legal advice. I've had a few ask if my guns were registered. And then argue with me when I tell them they dont have to be. One even told me that my CHP was only good in Buncombe county.

    East TN looks better everyday.
     
  23. SCKimberFan

    SCKimberFan Member

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    OC does not equal going armed to the terror of the public. Unless of course you are OCing a bazooka. However, the best advice is to be judicious about when and where you are carrying.

    Good advice, since they are not attorneys. However,you can contact local LEOs for their input (as an MP, they should give you the real scoop).
     
  24. jrpeppers

    jrpeppers Member

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    I just talked to a buddy of mine, who's a local cop, today about this little ongoing discussion. He says it is not illegal to OC, just stupid. All it does is highlight yourself to cops and crackheads alike. And in a vehicle yea it's in plain sight and your following the letter of the law, but during a traffic stop you have automatically upped the adrenaline factor for the LEO by about 10%, even if you let him know, by having a weapon without a CCW in arm's reach, especially if it's loaded.

    Now, granted this is just one cop's opinion, actually former Narc Detective (so I guess he knows a little about this stuff) but just thought I'd share his thoughts.

    And as for GATTOP, if you are walking around town with an OC pistol and you yelling at the kid in McDonald's for screwing up your order and he feels extra threatened b/c of your weapon; or your walking around with your pistol unholstered, but not brandishing it toward anyone in particular, then you can get the charge.....usually as a secondary charge.
     
  25. wrs840

    wrs840 Member

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    I'm in NC and went to the Post Office today, and was three steps away from my truck, and (oops) stopped, walked back, got back in, and disarmed into the center console. I do this same thing a few times a year. Is my concealed carry weapon legal stowed in the vehicle in the parking lot of a Post Office in NC?

    Les
     
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