ND last night. Listen and learn.

[pax]

rainbowbob ~

Sure, we're splitting hairs. Freely admitted!

Nevertheless.

A gun is a mechanism capable of launching a bullet. That's what a gun is, regardless of what your toddler grandson believes.

If you have the cylinder blocked open (not just open, but blocked open), the collection of gun parts in your hand is no more capable of launching a bullet than is the empty frame of a disassembled semi-auto. The receiver of a semi-auto might be a gun in legal parlance, but for purposes of firearms safety, it is not. Because it cannot by any conceivable turn of events actually launch a bullet.

Until it gets to that point, it is capable of launching a bullet, and must be treated with the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun.

pax

 

[RobMoore]

Here's what cautious respect looks like, by definition:

Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

Be sure of your target and what's beyond.

None of those do I violate with an unloaded gun (with the possible exception that I don't want to destroy an interior wall to my house when I'm dry firing.)

Its the "all guns are always loaded" that is an impossibility. I can't see how this argument continues.

No matter what you do with your firearm, no matter what your habits are, I bet there are things you do with an unloaded gun that you don't do with a loaded one. If you make that distinction, rule #1 (as stated above, without the qualifying addition of "unless verified otherwise") is violated.

You either allow the qualifying statement, or you break the rule.

I DARE anyone to say that the list of actions they perform with an unloaded gun matches 100% with the list of actions they perform with a loaded gun.

 

[blackcash88]

I carry a firearm and violate rule #2 all the time. It's impossible to carry and not sweep people below you if you're upstairs, pocket carry and sitting across the table from someone, standing in line carrying in a horizontal holster rig with people behind you, etc.

 

[pax]

I DARE anyone to say that the list of actions they perform with an unloaded gun matches 100% with the list of actions they perform with a loaded gun.

I have never done anything with an unloaded gun that I was not willing to risk doing with a loaded gun.

pax

 

[rainbowbob]

Its the "all guns are always loaded" that is an impossibility...

...I can't see how this argument continues.

There can be no further argument if everyone accepts Pax's definition that an unloaded gun is no longer a gun.

We can't deny that "All guns are always loaded" if we agree that "All unloaded guns are no longer guns".

But with all due respect Pax, I think re-defining terms in the middle of an argument is kind of "cheating". I think we all can agree that we must fully understand and respect the need for absolute safety all the time, every time we handle a firearm. The rest is just hair-splitting.

 

[pax]

rainbowbob ~

That is NOT what I said.

Please correct your post.

pax

 

[rainbowbob]

That is NOT what I said. Why lie about me?

There is no "with all due respect" when you lie about someone.

Yikes!

I sincerely didn't intend to "lie" about you, Pax. Take it easy. Here is what you wrote in a previous post:

When the cylinder is removed or blocked open on a revolver, it is not a mechanism capable of launching bullets. Thus it is not a "gun" at that point, loaded or otherwise.

I don't know how else to interpret that other than an unloaded gun is no longer - by your definition - a gun. If I've somehow misinterpreted that, I apologize.

 

[pax]

To be clear, here is what I actually said:

A gun is a mechanism capable of launching a bullet. That's what a gun is, regardless of what your toddler grandson believes.

If you have the cylinder blocked open (not just open, but blocked open), the collection of gun parts in your hand is no more capable of launching a bullet than is the empty frame of a disassembled semi-auto. The receiver of a semi-auto* might be a gun in legal parlance, but for purposes of firearms safety, it is not. Because it cannot by any conceivable turn of events actually launch a bullet.

Until it gets to that point, it is capable of launching a bullet, and must be treated with the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun.

Disagree all you like, but please deal with what I actually said.

pax

* (You could criticize this phrase, if you wish. I meant to type 'without a slide atop it,' but that's not what I actually did type.)

 

[BryanP]

(never mind)

 

[pax]

rainbowbob ~

My apologies re the word "lie" -- I edited it out nearly immediately, but you'd apparently already read it and begun to respond. Please forgive me; it was unwarranted.

Anyway, the point was that a disassembled gun is not a "gun" for purposes of firearms safety. The equivalent of removing a semi-auto's slide is blocking open the cylinder of a revolver.

pax

 

[Henry Bowman]

But with all due respect Pax, I think re-defining terms in the middle of an argument is kind of "cheating".

rainbowbob: Go look at post #91 in this thread again. That is where pax first entered the discussion and set forth her definitions. Nothing has been re-defined. You are arguing nomenclature over mechanics.

 

[Mainsail]

You've just stated that there are -- in actual practice -- TWO sets of rules.

No, one rule with two parts separated by a comma. The second part represents the only acceptable exception.

These are not so much "rules" as they are the simple and inevitable outworking of an intelligent person handling a gun with the respect they'd give a loaded weapon.

Uh, what? The discussion was about rule #1, which is a rule, not that thing you said above. It seems like you're trying to change the entire playing field in the middle of the game to support an argument with little substance.

So when you say it's okay to treat an "unloaded" gun without that same respect, I wonder why.

Except I never said any such thing and I find it puzzling that you would suggest I had. In fact, I said the exact opposite. You’re looking at it as though I would somehow treat an unloaded gun with less respect than I would a loaded one. By following the other rules respect is maintained, even when dry-firing. Break it down to simple terms. Would you ever intentionally discharge a firearm inside your house for mere practice? By the logic that ‘every firearm is always loaded’, you would have to admit that you do whenever you dry-fire.

The receiver of a semi-auto might be a gun in legal parlance, but for purposes of firearms safety, it is not. Because it cannot by any conceivable turn of events actually launch a bullet.~~~
… (You could criticize this phrase, if you wish. I meant to type 'without a slide atop it,' but that's not what I actually did type.)

Off topic, I’m going to disagree with this statement as well, even though I’m ignoring the word ‘receiver’ in your statement. If you pull the slide off your Glock with a round in the chamber (which is possible with some force) you still have a ‘gun’ and it’s still capable of firing. Push in the little round doohickey and then pull back the bar on the firing pin and let it snap forward; it should fire.

I have never done anything with an unloaded gun that I was not willing to risk doing with a loaded gun.

Again, you’re trying to change things in the middle. The rule you are supporting is; ‘All guns are always loaded” which is not the same as; “All guns are always loaded only so far as one is willing to risk that it isn’t”. That might be where we’re having the breakdown. To me a rule is inviolate, especially a rule about something deadly.

Thanks for the interesting debate and my apologies to the OP for derailing his thread.

 

[rainbowbob]

Disagree all you like, but please deal with what I actually said.

I'm sorry, Pax - but here is what you actually wrote in Post #99 - exactly as I quoted in my Post #106

When the cylinder is removed or blocked open on a revolver, it is not a mechanism capable of launching bullets. Thus it is not a "gun" at that point, loaded or otherwise.

Henry Bowman wrote:

Go look at post #91 in this thread again. That is where pax first entered the discussion and set forth her definitions. Nothing has been re-defined. You are arguing nomenclature over mechanics.

You are right Henry. I did not mean to imply that Pax was being dishonest - and I regret using the term "cheating". I only meant to express my thought that defining a gun as not a gun if it is "disassembled" (or in the case of a revolver - with the cylinder blocked open) as using semantics to win an argument (i.e., "friendly discussion").

I'm afraid we're kind of chasing our tails here with edits and re-edits and clarifications, and semantics v mechanics, etc.

I'm going to go away for a little while, take a deep breath, and let the dust settle.

And I meant no offense toward any of the fine folk involved in this thread.

 

[scrat]

Ouch. on my auto loaders. I always slide them twice. I have a mark II. I would have pulled the slide back released it then pulled the slide back again. This has always been my practice. Just incase. Like in your situation. the first pull you saw an empty chamber. then released the slide loading the chamber. i would have pulled the slide back again. Exposing and releasing a bullet. That would have raised my attention fast.


Always pull the slide twice not once.


Always pull the slide twice not once



Always pull the slide twice not once.

 

[RobMoore]

6 of one, half dozen of another, but if you actually check the chamber and the magazine well twice, you don't need to worry about racking the slide (because then you're relying on the extractor to work).

 

[ChrisVV]

Every few months I read one of these. Always the same story. Always reminds me of mine.

Glad to hear no one was hurt, It happens to the best of us.

 

[pax]

You’re looking at it as though I would somehow treat an unloaded gun with less respect than I would a loaded one.

Um, that's what you said, yourself. To be precise, you wrote:

“Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.”

(Emphasis added.)

Mainsail, when you say "until", you are saying that something different happens after that point in time. You're doing one thing, and then after that point in time, you're doing something else.

For instance:

If I said to a friend, "We can visit until it's time for my next appointment," I am in actual fact saying that after my next appointment rolls around, we are not going to visit any more.

If my boss said to me, "You are working nights until next week," he has most definitely told me that something will change in my schedule next week. He might have meant, "... after that I'll fire you." Or he might have meant, "... after that we will look at the schedule again and reconsider." Or he might have meant "... after that you will work days instead." But regardless of which it was, when he used the word UNTIL in that sentence, he clearly meant that something in my schedule of working nights would change after the point in time he referred to.

This is just the way the language works.

So when you say “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not," you are most definitely communicating that something changes at that point in time. The strongest and most obvious implication, impossible to avoid, is that you'd no longer be treating the firearm with the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun.

And that's just wrong.

Dress it up however you like. But the plain sense of the rule you proposed is that you consider it safe for people to have two sets of rules: one set that applies until the gun is checked, and another set that applies after the gun is checked.

So ... what are your "unloaded gun" rules? What rules are you following with that allegedly "unloaded" gun that you are not willing to follow with a loaded one?

(For me, it's rather simple: ALL guns are ALWAYS treated with the cautious respect I'd give a loaded gun, and that includes obeying all the necessary corollaries such as not pointing the gun in stupid directions, keeping my finger off the trigger until my sights are on target, and always being certain that my target is appropriate and the area behind it able to safely stop a bullet.)

But what is it, for you? What are you doing with your "unloaded" gun that you are not willing to risk doing with a loaded one?

pax

 

[RobMoore]

I can give you a list of things I do with an unloaded gun that I don't do with a loaded one.

#1 Take it apart
#2 Clean it
#3 Hand it to someone
#4 Dry fire in my house
#5 Transport it to someplace with it not on my hip
#6 Ship it to the factory/gunsmith for work
#7 Work on it myself

Would you agree, Pax, that all of these things either require or its a good idea to make the gun unloaded?

If you draw no distinction, then you either don't do these things, or you do them with loaded guns.

 

[Mainsail]

…when you say "until", you are saying that something different happens after that point in time. You're doing one thing, and then after that point in time, you're doing something else.

Yes, exactly. That doesn’t mean there’s any loss of respect for the danger of the firearm or that I’m disregarding the other three rules. I do not treat my unloaded gun with less respect, but I DO treat it differently than I do when it’s loaded.

Like it or not Pax, you DO treat your unloaded gun very differently than you do a loaded one. You would not dry-fire a loaded gun. You would not function check a loaded gun. You would not clean a loaded gun. Yet you DO all of those things. Even though you’ve dumbed down the rule, you yourself ignore it! When you say that ‘all guns are always loaded’ you’re telling a lie because you admit to cleaning, dry-firing, and function checking your guns; all things you WOULD NOT do with a loaded gun. Can you not grasp the hypocrisy? You say one thing (all guns are always loaded) yet your actions demonstrate something else (treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not). This is disingenuous at best. By stating the full rule (rule #1) you maintain your integrity, to yourself and those around you.

 

[pax]

Like it or not Pax, you DO treat your unloaded gun very differently than you do a loaded one. You would not dry-fire a loaded gun. You would not function check a loaded gun. You would not clean a loaded gun. Yet you DO all of those things.

Not so.

Let me explain.

As best as I am able, I ALWAYS, in every situation in which I am handling a firearm, handle it with the understanding and expectation that it could -- and will! -- deal out death and dismemberment if I goof up or goof off. In other words, my mindset is that all guns that I handle are always loaded as I handle them. I truly believe they will bite me if I break the rules even once. I do not give myself permission to say, "Well, it's okay to break this rule or that one 'just this once', because the gun isn't loaded." I do not give myself permission to shrug off the risks when I am handling a firearm, no matter in which condition I believe the firearm to be. When I handle a gun, I strive to always do so with the expectation and understanding that it could easily deal out death or dismemberment if I become complacent.

And in the rare situations where it seems safe enough to do something with gun in hand, I ask myself, "Would I be willing to do this if I knew for damn sure the gun was loaded?" If the answer is no, I don't do it.

That's how I follow Rule One. All guns are always loaded when I handle them.

When I dryfire, I do so with the understanding and expectation that the gun could actually be loaded no matter how many times I've checked it or how certain I am that the ammunition is out of the room. That's why I am obsessive about having a safe direction and a solid backstop in my home for dry fire: because if I would definitely not be willing to do the same action with a loaded gun, I won't do it with one I merely think is unloaded. If I don't have a backstop that would stop the bullet from a loaded gun, I won't point an "unloaded" gun at it either. Because all guns are always loaded.

When I function-check the gun, I do so with the understanding and expectation that the gun could actually be loaded no matter how many times I've checked it or how certain I am that the ammunition is out of the room. That's why I don't point it at my own left hand while pulling the trigger, as this guy did. Or at my own leg, as this poor guy did. Or at my child, as this guy did. I don't point the gun at my loved ones and I don't allow my favorite body parts to get in front of the muzzle of an "unloaded" gun, because there's no such thing as an "unloaded" gun. All guns are always capable of dealing out death or dismemberment if you do a stupid thing like that.

When I disassemble the gun for cleaning, I begin the disassembly process with the understanding and expectation that the gun could be loaded no matter how carefully I think I've checked it. That's why I don't point it at people I love when I put my finger on the trigger to complete the disassembly process -- as this poor guy did. Or at my own leg, as this guy did. It's why I keep the gun pointed at a safe backstop until it is actually disassembled to the point where it is no longer capable of launching a bullet. Because all guns are always loaded and must be treated as such.

When I am handling guns for any reason or no reason at all, I do so with the understanding and expectation that the gun could fire no matter how carefully I think I've checked it. Distraction is a bad thing, as this guy found out. And as this guy learned. A loaded gun deserves your complete respect and attention at all times.

In other words, no matter what procedures I've followed to "unload" the gun, no matter what state I believe the firearm to be in, I am always aware that I could be wrong. I could have goofed. I am not the world's first perfect person (nor even within shouting distance therefrom). Despite taking care to check with eye and hand, I could have made a mistake in my procedure. Or I could have reloaded the gun and forgotten I did so. Everyone has brain farts. And every firearm I handle is capable of dealing out death or dismemberment if I goof when I am handling it.

When you suggest throwing out Rule One, you are simultaneously suggesting that human beings can trust themselves not to make the kinds of mistakes I've highlighted above. Follow the links. Read what these guys have to say. To a man, they will tell you that they thought the gun was unloaded and that's why they they killed or crippled their loved ones, or crippled themselves, or shat their pants with a very frightening near miss. Because they allowed themselves to become complacent. Because they thought their single layer of safety -- "I checked to be sure it was unloaded" -- was enough. Because they thought it was enough to check and maybe to double check, and did not really believe in their guts that all guns are always capable of dealing out death and dismemberment if treated with even the slightest bit of disrespect.

Tragically, "But I checked ...!" is often the first thing that goes through the mind of someone who shot himself or a loved one. Too bad. Really, too bad. My heart goes out to every one of these guys. For those whose events I've highlighted, I'm really really sorry these things happened to you. Nothing can call the bullets back, nothing can erase the pain you must have felt or the embarrassment -- but THANK YOU for sharing your stories so we could all learn from them. (Of course it would not make it "worth it," but preventing others from making similar mistakes is a worthwhile endeavour of its own. So thank you.)

For those of you reading this who right now are thinking, "But it can't happen to ME" -- you're wrong. It can happen to you. It can happen to me. It can happen to anyone who allows themselves to believe, even for a decisecond, that the gun is anything other than a dangerous object which will bite if you goof.

And sometimes, even to them.

But following all four of the Four Rules obsessively, religiously, and habitually will at least prevent you from making the most monumentally stupid of all after-an-ND statements possible: "I didn't know it was loaded..."

Because all guns are always loaded.

pax

PS Done with the thread for now. Thanks for the good conversation, y'all.

 

[akodo]

Remember, part of the 4 rules is a 'What if you are wrong?' safeguard.

What if you are wrong about how thoroughly you checked it, even after checking it twice?

My personal slight alteration is "Assume all guns are always loaded" simply because some people go into logical lockup if they are told 'all guns are always loaded'

That being said, because I assume that I might some day in my life fail to fully and carefully check a gun, even if I KNOW it is unloaded, I RECOGNISE that I am NOT PEFECT and that I shall fail from time to time. I ASSUME I might be wrong, and I ASSUME the gun is loaded because of my imperfect nature. Theirfore if I am going to pull the trigger I say to myself 'If I am wrong, and this gun is loaded, where is the safest place for the bullet to hit?' and then I aim at that point, and pull the trigger.

I also slightly alter rule 3 with 'Keep your finger off the trigger until youe sights are on target and you are prepared for the firearm to fire' because this means you can be intending to dry-fire, but you also have prepared for the gun to really fire in case you were wrong about it's loaded status.

Why should you listen to me? I have been accidentally shot by someone who broke the 4 rules. I caught part of the pattern of a 410 in the feet, just the edge thank God, plus I suspect pellets bouncing back up and dirt getting kicked back up, but I had pellets imbedded in my heavy work boots, with some going all the way though the leather to break skin on my feet. A loaded gun was brought back from the firing line, so a shooter pointed it down range when we were out changing targets in an attempt to follow safety rules, and as it was a single shot exposed hammer, he needed to hold the hammer and pull the trigger and lower the hammer to open it to eject the shell, but the hammer slipped.

It's not worth it.

HUMANS ARE NOT PERFECT THIS INCLUDES YOU

Because humans are not perfect is is POSSIBLE that a gun you have checked 3 times is actually still loaded. Hence ALL the other rules still apply.

Because all humans are not perfect, it is POSSIBLE that what you generally think is a safe direction is no longer safe. That's why you actually AIM at something before putting your finger on the trigger. Had the person who shot me put his 'sights on target' he would have seen me right there. He thought simply pointing the muzzle in a safe direction was enough, and you could skip the 'finger off trigger until sights are on target' part. Humans are not perfect, and he attempted to follow #2 about not covering anything with the muzzle, but failed. That's where rule #3 should have caught him, but rule #3 is skipped.

That's we get so worked up when people say 'It is okay to skip rule X under condition Y' because we assume that 1 time out of 100,000 you will be WRONG about condition Y existing, because humans are not perfect, and that 1 time out of 100,000 may well equal death.

 

[akodo]

I can give you a list of things I do with an unloaded gun that I don't do with a loaded one.

#1 Take it apart
#2 Clean it
#3 Hand it to someone
#4 Dry fire in my house
#5 Transport it to someplace with it not on my hip
#6 Ship it to the factory/gunsmith for work
#7 Work on it myself

Yes, but you know what else?

I don't
#1 Take it apart
#2 Clean it
#3 Hand it to someone
#4 Dry fire in my house
#5 Transport it to someplace with it not on my hip
#6 Ship it to the factory/gunsmith for work
#7 Work on it myself
while pointing it at a family member. Why? because I might be wrong and it might be loaded.

Further I don't do any of those things with my finger on the trigger, or if I have to put my finger on the trigger, I pick a target I am willing to destroy, I know what is behind/around it, and I place my front sight on it and I am prepared for the gun to discharge before I touch the trigger.

 

[RobMoore]

I don't (list of things) while pointing it at a family member.

..and you think any of us do?

 

[DesertRat]

Brad,

Thank you for your story. This is a very valuable lesson for all of us, and I appreciate your taking the time to help remind us all of what can happen.

BTW, your ND is exactly the same scenario as what happened to a close friend of mine when a buddy of his did the same exact same thing.

My friend was conducting a dry fire session with a buddy of his (they were neglegent for not removing all ammo / mags from the room) and when my friend returned to the room from a restroom break and picked his Beretta back up and snapped it, as he was preparing to wrap things up for the afternoon.... "BANG"

Fortunately... nobody was hurt and the damage was limited to a wall.

Thanks.

DR

 

[akodo]

..and you think any of us do?

if the gun is unloaded, why not? At least that is what those who demand a change to rule #1 demand.

I am like you, I don't do those things with the gun pointed at people because I realize that no matter how carefully I check, and no matter how many times, I MIGHT BE WRONG, and hence I treat all guns as if they are loaded.