neck sizing with rcbs FL size die

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Axis II

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the only size die I have is a rcbs FL die and I keep seeing neck sizing only is good for accuracy.

im new to this and only made one batch so far of hornady SP 223rem and they didn't shoot so well so I got 100 hornady v max 55gr 223 to try and tighten groups up.

being new should I mess with neck sizing or just FL size them,

if I can neck size can it be done with a FL die and if so, how?
 
You cannot neck size with a FL sizer, besides right now you just need to learn to swim. You can load some highly accurate ammo FL sizing. Get the basics down first.
 
What's your referring to is partial sizing. It's not the same as neck sizing.

Neck sizing is accomplished with a neck sizing die, which only touches / sizes the neck, and nothing else. And even if using a neck die, it is almost always necessary at some point in time to use a FL die to bump the shoulders back once they've been fire formed, or pushed up to the extent that the brass won't any longer fit the chamber due to head to datum

Partial sizing is when we adjust the FL die so that it only partially sizes the brass,, but this process is something for the more experienced. If your not familiar with the process, you'll encounter chamber fitting issues due to the shoulder getting pushed up as a result of the body getting sized down. If you consider that by squeezing the body in, the brass has to go some where, so the only place it can be pushed / flow is up.

I my self have partial sized now and then, but as a short cut to getting my shoulders pushed up by fire forming. When done correctly, as in when the correct amount of partial sizing is determined, the shoulder will not get pushed up to much, thus interfering with chamber fit. It can provide enhanced cartridge alignment because the neck will maintain a small area of it's original fire form. And it can also minimize over working of the brass, though proper FL sizing can provide the same benefit and with less time spent adjusting the FL die.

My recommendation is to use your FL die as intended, and adjust so it only maintains proper chamber fit, head to datum line off the shoulder that provides a .0025" buffer ensuring all the brass will chamber with a proper fit, thus minimizing excess stretch at the web / the area just above the case head region. Too much shoulder bump, and it will result in premature case head separations or incipient case head separations the result of excessive stretching and working during resizing also. Too little and your brass won't fit the chamber.

GS
 
Best accuracy with reloaded bottleneck cases has always happened with proper full length sized cases. They need to fit the chamber with about .002" of 'head clearance' when the bolt's closed. Head clearance is the term describing the difference between chamber headspace and that of the case. It's the space between the breech/bolt face and the case head when the round's full forward in the chamber.

"Partial full length" sizing wherein the fired case is resized with a full length sizing die typically ends up with case headspace (distance from case head to shoulder reference) a thousandth or more greater than chamber headspace. When chambered, the case jams tight in the chamber with both head and shoulder hard against both ends of the chamber. That certainly centers the case shoulder in the chamber shoulder aligning the front of the case well centered in the chamber.

But the case head bears hard enough against the bolt face to make it go into battery at different places across several rounds. That causes accuracy problems; benchrest folks easily observe a 1/8 to 1/4 MOA increase in average group size when that happened with their neck only sized cases; they had to full length size cases again to prevent bolt head displacement on cases binding when chambered. That's one reason why they quit neck sizing and minimally full length size their fired cases. Besides, full length sizing made their largest groups get smaller. Sierra Bullets learned about this back in the 1950's which is why they full length size all their cases used to test their stuff for accuracy.

A brand new rimless bottleneck case centers perfectly up front in the chamber when fired. First by an inline ejector pushing it to its forward limits; there's enough space between bolt face and extractor lip to do that. No, extractors do not hold case heads against the bolt face; a popular myth that's easily disproved.

Second, the firing pin drives case shoulders hard into chamber shoulders well centering them there before the primer fires. Often with enough force to set the case shoulder back a few thousandths.

If you can measure a fired case headspace with an RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady LNL gauge, all you need to do is full length size the case so its shoulder is set back about .002" from its fired position for bolt guns. For semiautos, set it back about .003".

You can also use a nylon bushing whose inside diameter's a little larger than fired case neck diameter. Use it with a caliper to measure case headspace. Here's pictures using one to measure .30-06 case headspace when wanting to full length size it setting its shoulder back only .001":

63f5b8a3-4617-44f2-9b54-be1a9db0325f.jpg

There'll be a small spread in case headspace after sizing several. Typically .002" to .003" that's caused by press spring, lubricity of the case lube and surface friction between case and die.
 
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right now, with your level of experience in handloading, I suggest you take walkalongs advise. after you get a few hundred reloads under your belt, then try bart b.s advise.

murf
 
murf, walkalong's advice is to full length size cases properly.

What, in your opinion, is "properly?" That means a wide range of tools and techniques based on someone's preferences and experiences to meet their objectives. It'll yield dozens of reloads per case to only a few. Accuracy will vary with test methods as well as ones objectives, conditions and standards they set for ammo performance.
 
lol.... :)

What I meant by "properly" here is following the reloading books advise, which is where everyone should start.


I have my own little home made "gauges" I use to check how far I am moving the shoulder, and Bart is right, it will vary among cases due to several factors.

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As long as the rounds chamber in your gun and you don't create "artificial" headspace by moving the shoulder back too far, you'll be fine.


I try to give advise at the experience level it appears the poster is at, just like I taught baseball, at the level of the trainee. I would work with a 9 year old differently than an experienced ball player. :)
 
Neck sizing only is good for extending case life. Doesn't have much to do with accuracy.
You can set up an FL die to neck size only, but it takes a bunch of trial and error fiddling and neck sizing only is for bolt actions only with cases fired out of that rifle. Plus all new cases require FL sizing(checking lengths and trimming, as required, and chamfering and deburring). As do cases used in a semi-auto, lever action or pump gun.
Like Walkalong says, get the basics down and work up the load before you worry about anything else.
 
I and others have got 40 to 100 reloads per rimless bottleneck case full length sizing them. I don't know of anybody neck only sizing that doesn't have to full length size cases after several 8 to 12) firings with max loads because they are hard to chamber easily because their case headspace is greater than chamber headspace.

I don't think anyone can neck only size any rimless bottleneck case the full length of the case neck without sizing the case body down a little and moving the fired case neck forward enough to make the case hard, if not impossible, to chamber. Even with half the neck sized, their bodies get shrunk down a bit and shoulders moved forward a little.

I and others have got sub 2/3 MOA accuracy from 600 to 1000 yards with brand new cases never prepped in any way. Even the best match grade M1 and M14 rifles in 7.62 NATO get 2/3 MOA accuracy at 600 yards with brand new unprepped cases handloaded or new commercial match ammo.

I see nor have no problems getting excellent accuracy from virgin brass. But it does have to be decent quality.
 
I use a FL bushing style sizer for .308 for an accuracy oriented load in my FN SPR and move the shoulder an average 2 or 3 thousandths. It shots very well. Being a standard sizer and chamber, I imagine it gets sized more than it needs to be to get those kinds of number of reloadings, but case life should be very good. I could bump them a hair less, but I want 100% easy to chamber ammo.

With a tight necked 6PPC gun and a custom bushing style FL sizer where the case barely gets sized in any direction (Neck, shoulder, body), case life is outstanding, but I never counted how many.
 
I concur with Bart and Walkalong, properly FL sized brass is the best way to achieve consistent accuracy.

As I was attempting to relate in my rather lengthy post, is that about the only time I partial size, is if I'm using brass that didn't come from my rifle that is creating excessive false head space. So what I have done on occasion, is partial size enough to push the shoulders forward, thus eliminating most if not all false head space during that initial fire forming. I do this so I won't experience premature incipient case head separation. Once that brass has been fire formed to my chamber though, I then revert back to FL sizing, thus maintaining a good chamber fit that doesn't exhibit more than .002" of false head space.

But what about new brass, or brass that has already been sized, and is too short head to shoulder, thus exhibiting excessive false head space when chambered? In these instances, partial sizing won't push the shoulders forward, due to the body already being sized, therefore there's no brass to be moved forward. Although there's no real way to solve the excessive false head space issue, well at least short of using an expensive hydraulic brass forming die to push the shoulder forward anyway. But there is at least a way to ensure that the brass will get fully formed on the initial fire forming session. I accomplish this by seating the bullet jammed hard enough into the lands to keep the case head held against the bolt face. Doing this prevents firing pin inertia, and, or extractor button pressure from pushing it away from the bolt face, which results in fully formed brass on the first firing. However, this isn't really something for a new reloader to take on. One must have some experience with their loads / pressures / and rifle before experimenting with this process, or excessive pressures could result.

And even though keeping false head space as minimal as possible is the goal, I don't want it too tight either. I don't like to feel a lot of resistance when the bolt is closed, galling the lugs could then become an issue. So my goal is no more than .002" to .000".

As for neck sizing, when I bought my first neck dies and started into that world, I thought I had found the solve all method for maintaining the dimensional characteristics of fire formed brass. But I soon learned that neck sizing actually introduced other issues. For one thing, and in concurrence with what Bart had stated, at some point the shoulders will have to be bumped back.

Then there is the issue with the body also. Neck only sizing will eventually cause the case body to start binding in the chamber, particularly down near the case head. You can correct that by partial FL sizing, but once again, any time you squeeze the body down, that excess brass has to go some where, which is always going to be up, thus requiring shoulder bump. So thee's really no point, it only creates another problem to address.

So as for exclusively neck sizing, your either going to need a hammer to close the bolt at some point, or the more appropriate, proper method would be to correctly FL size.

There's still times when I neck size, but it's not a die I use all that often any more, and that's because I like my brass to fit properly. One example of when I might neck size only, is if the brass falls out of the chamber with a light tap on the barrel, and shoulders don't need bumping. In those instances, I'll sometimes just run them through a neck die, but usually, they get FL resized.

GS
 
Please explain what these two new terms to me are because I've never heard of either until today:

* False headspace.

* Artificial headspace.

Are they the same thing that SAAMI specs term "head clearance"? That's the space between the bolt/breech face and case head when the case is full forward in the chamber when against its headspacing reference. Chamber headspace is fixed; doesn't change unless bolt or receiver metal moves.

I don't think neck sized cases fit the chamber positioning the bullet better centered (properly?) to the bore than correctly full length sized ones do. In fact, they often center bullets in the bore worse because neck only sized cases do not keep the case body and shoulder aligned with their neck as its sized down like full length dies do.
 
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Please explain what these two new terms to me are because I've never heard of either until today:

* Artificial headspace.

I explained what I meant by "artificial headspace" in the link, and I used that term because that is what I used in the link), but yes, it's head clearance when talking SAMMI.

But of course you knew that, just as well as you knew what I was talking about. I am just trying to help posters, not impress anyone. With your credentials, you shouldn't feel the need to either. :)

Chamber headspace is fixed; doesn't change unless bolt or receiver metal moves.
As I posted in the link. I also used "clearance" in the link as well.

So, I stand corrected, it's head clearance and not "artificial headspace, which I made up (Never claimed not to have made it up.)

The whole idea is to help the poster, who could care less about this silly go between and only wants their question answered in a way it will be helpful.

being new should I mess with neck sizing or just FL size them,

if I can neck size can it be done with a FL die and if so, how?
You should just full length size them. No, you cannot neck size with a FL sizer.

I am sure he will have more questions, but that can be another thread, as we have derailed this one enough.
 
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