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Need a reason to take home security and self-defense seriously?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Horsesense, Aug 18, 2005.

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  1. Horsesense

    Horsesense Member

    Apr 6, 2003
    The following is a transcript from Monday, June 27th. Dennis Rader details ten murders in front of Judge Greg Waller

    Waller "In regards to Count One. Please tell me in your own words what you did on the 15th day of January of 1974, in Sedgwick County, Kansas that makes you believe you are guilty of Count One?"
    Rader: "On January 15,1974, I maliciously and intentionally killed Joseph Otero." Waller: "I need to find out more information. On that particular day can you tell me where and when you went to kill Joseph Otero?"
    Rader: "It was 1834 Edgemoor, somewhere between 7 and 7:30."
    Waller: "Did you know these people?"
    Rader: "That was part of my fantasy these people were selected."
    Waller: "You were engaged in some kind of fantasy in this part of time?"
    Rader: "Yes, sir."
    Waller: "When you use the word fantasy is this something you did for personal pleasure?"
    Rader: "Sexual fantasy, sir."
    Waller: "So, you went to this residence. What occurred there?"
    Rader: "I had done some thinking of what I should do to Mrs. Otero or Josephine. I went to the home and confronted the family and basically went from there."
    Waller: "Had you planned this beforehand?
    Rader: "To some degree. When I got there I lost control. In the back of my mind I had a good idea of what I would do, but I basically panicked that first day."
    Waller: "Did you know who was there that first day?"
    Rader: "I knew she was in the house and the two kids were in the house, but I didn’t realize Mr. Otero was in the house."
    Waller: "How did you get into the house?"
    Rader: "I came through the back door, cut the phone lines. I had reservations about even going in, but once the door opened, I didn’t turn back. I think one of the kids opened the door to let the dog out."
    Waller: "When you went into the house what happened then?"
    Rader: "I confronted the family and pulled a pistol and confronted Mr. Otero. I told them I was wanted and told them to lie down in the living room. The dog was a real problem and one of the kids took the dog outside. I took the four members of the family in the back bedroom and tied them up. They started to complain about being tied up. I re-loosened the bonds a couple of times. I tried to make Mr. Otero as comfortable as possible. Mr. Otero had a cracked rib from a car accident, so I put a pillow by his head and put a coat underneath him. From there, I realized I didn’t have a mask on or anything, so he could I.D. me. So, I made a decision to put him down."
    Waller: "What did you do to Joseph Otero?"
    Rader: "I put a plastic bag over his head and tightened it with some cords."
    Waller: "Did he die right away?"
    Rader: "No sir. No, he didn’t."
    Waller: "What happened?"
    Rader: "After that I did Mrs. Otero. I had never strangled anyone before, so I really didn’t know how long it would take. Both her hands and her feet were tied up."
    Waller: "Where were the children?"
    Rader: "They were on the bed."
    Waller: "But, Mr. Otero didn’t die right way. So, what happened?"
    Rader: "He moved over and tore a hole in the bag, but at that time, the whole family panicked. So, I worked pretty quick. I mean, I strangled Mrs. Otero and she went out. Then, I strangled Josephine. She passed out and I thought she was dead. Then, I went over and put a bag over Junior’s head and then, if I remember right, Mrs. Otero came back."
    Waller: "You indicated Mr. Otero tore a hole in the bag. "What did you do then?"
    Rader: "I put another bag over him. Or, if I recollect, I think I put a cloth over his head."
    Waller: "Did he subsequently die?"
    Rader: "Yes. I didn’t just stand there and watch him because I was moving around the room."
    Waller: "You indicated you strangled Mrs. Otero after you’d done this?"
    Rader: "I went back and strangled her again, and finally, killed her.
    Judge Waller summarizes what he’s heard from Defendant Rader up to this point. Rader responds: "First of all, Mr. Otero was strangled. Then, I thought he was going down. Then, I strangled Mrs. Otero and thought she was down. Then, I went and strangled Josephine and she was down.
    Then, I went over to Junior and put the bag over his head. Then, Mrs. Otero came back and she was pretty upset over what’s going on. So, I came back and at that point in time gave her a ‘death strangle’ with a cord. Then, at that point in time I re-did Mr. Otero with the bag over his head. Before that, Mrs. Otero had asked me before to save her son. So, I took the bag off his head and was pretty upset at that time. Basically, Mr. Otero was down and Mrs. Otero was down. I put a bag over his head and took him (Junior) to the other bedroom. I put a bag over his head and a cloth over his head. He died.
    Then, I went over and Josephine had woke (sic) back up. I took her to the basement and hung her."
    Waller: "You hung her in the basement. Did you do anything then?"
    Rader: "Yes sir. I had some sexual fantasies, but that was after she was hung."
    Waller: "What did you do then?"
    Rader: "I cleaned up and went from room to room. I went back and took a radio (and a watch). I have no idea why I took them. I took the keys to the car and cleaned the house up and left through the front door and went over to their car, and went over to Dillon’s and eventually walked back to my car." 9:34:22 (12 MINUTES)
    Rader: "I had many projects. I had people I would watch around town. Kathryn Bright was one of the next targets. (I was) Just driving by one day and thought that would be a possibility. It was basically, a selection process. There were many places in the area. If it didn’t work out, I would just move on to something else. In my kind of person it was kind of a trolling stage and a stalking stage and I was in stalking stage when this happened. On this particular day, I broke into the house and waited for her to come home through the back door on the east side."
    Waller: "Where did you wait?"
    Rader: "In the back room and waited. Kevin and her came in. I didn’t expect him to be there, but found out later they were related. At that time, I approached them and told them I was wanted in California. Basically, the same thing I told the Otero’s. I tied up him or her first. I can’t remember right now."
    Waller: "You indicated before you brought some things with you before. What did you this time to tie them up?"
    Rader: "I can’t remember with the Brights. When I was working with the police (after his arrest) there was some controversy about that, but if I would have brought my own things, Kevin would have probably died. I’m not bragging on that. It’s just a matter of fact. But the bonds I used, you couldn’t get out of."
    Waller: "Then what happened?"
    Rader: "I really can’t remember, Judge. But basically, I moved her to another bedroom, but he was already secured there. I tied her up in the other bedroom and came back to tie him up again to the bedpost. I had two handguns. I started to strangle him and he broke out of his bonds and jumped out with his hands like this. I shot and it hit his head and I saw the blood and thought he was dead. Then, I went to strangle Kathryn and we started fighting because the bonds weren’t very good. I got the best of her and thought she was going down. I heard some movement in the other room so I went back and tried to re-strangle him (Kevin) at that time. We fought and he tried to get my gun in the shoulder holster and we fought and he tried to get my gun. But I shot him a second time and thought he was down. I went back to Kathryn and strangling wasn’t working so I stabbed her two or three times underneath the ribs and in the back. At that point in time it was a total mess. I heard Kevin escape. The front door was open and he was gone. I thought the police were coming. I quickly cleaned up everything, and left."
    Judge Waller asks Rader if he wore a mask at the Brights home on E. 13th Street.
    Rader: "No, I didn’t have a mask on at that time. I already had the keys to the car. I tried the key it didn’t work. I just took off and ran toward the WSU campus and walked back to my car and got away."
    Rader: "Actually, on that one she was completely random. Actually, someone across from Dillon’s was my potential target. This one was called Project Green. I had project names for all of them. That particular day, I drove to the Dillons parking lot and followed the victim. I knocked and nobody answered, so I was all keyed up. So, I just started going through the neighborhood. I’d gone through the back alleys before. While I was going down Hydraulic I asked a boy to I-D some pictures and followed him back to feel it out. I called them potential hits in my world."
    Waller: "Was this to gratify some sexual fantasy?"
    Rader: "Yes, sir. I went to the house. The boy went, too and told him I was a private detective and showed him the picture and at that time I kind of forced my way in and showed them my .357 Magnum. I told Mrs. Vian I had a problem with a sexual fantasy and I took her to the back porch and explained I’d done this before. I think she smoked a cigarette because she was extremely nervous. She wasn’t feeling well because she had her night robe on. We went back to her bedroom and proceeded to tie the kids up and they started crying, so I said, ‘this isn’t going to work.’ We took the kids to the bathroom and she helped me put some toys and blankets and other odds and ends in the bathroom. We tied the door shut and we took another bed and shoved it up against the door. I took her back in the bedroom and tied her up. At that time she got sick and threw up. I got her a glass of water and tried to comfort her a little bit. I put a plastic bag over her head. I had tied her legs to the bedpost and used a rope to strangle her. The kids were screaming and banging and the telephone rang. They had talked about a neighbor coming to check on them. I had a briefcase and I threw everything in it and cleaned everything up and got out of there."
    Waller: "Was it the same stuff you’d had before?"
    Rader: "I called it my hit kit. My car was still at the Dillons at Lincoln and Hydraulic. 5 MINUTES
    Rader: "Nancy Fox was another one of the projects. When I was trolling the neighborhood, I noticed her go home one night. I put her down as a potential victim."
    Waller: What do you mean by trolling?"
    Rader: "It’s called stalking. If you’d read much about serial killers, they go through different phases. It could last months or years, but once you lock in on a victim, that’s it."
    Waller: "You basically identified Nancy Fox as your project. What happened then?" Rader: "I basically did some homework. I stopped by once to get her mail to see what her name was. I stopped by Helzberg’s once to size her up. The more I saw someone the more comfortable I got with them, so I tried it that particular night and it worked out. About two or three blocks away I parked my car and I walked to that residence. I knocked and nobody answered. I went around back and cut the phone lines. I broke in and waited for her to come home in the kitchen. I confronted her and told her I had sexual problems and I’d have to tie her up and have sex with her. She was a little upset. We talked for a while and she smoked a cigarette and I went through her purse. She finally said: ‘Well, let’s get this over with so I can call police.’ She asked if she could go to the bathroom and I said yes. She went to the bathroom and I told her to make sure she was undressed when she came out. When she came out I handcuffed her. I had her lying on the bed. I tied her up. I was also undressed partially, and got on top of her. Then I strangled her with a belt. I took the belt off and replaced them with pantyhose. Then at that time I masturbated. I dressed and took some of her personal belongings and left."
    5 minutes
    Rader: "Actually, kind of like the others, I went through the different phases and she was chosen. The stalking phase and since she lived down the street from me I could watch her quite easily. On that particular day, I had another commitment and took my car over to Woodlawn and 21st Street, that bowling alley over there, at that time. I changed my clothes. I went to the bowling alley and I had a bowling bag with me. I called a taxi and had the taxi take me to Park City. I pretended I was a little drunk. I swished some beer in my mouth and he could probably smell beer on me. I had him drop me off to get some fresh air near her home. Was it 62? (Rader turns to his defense counsel and smiles.) 6254 North Independence. As before, I was going to have sexual fantasies, so I brought my hit kit. I saw her car and she wasn’t supposed to be there. I very carefully snuck in her home, like a cat burglar, after checking she wasn’t there. About that time the door was rattled and I went back in the bedroom. She came in with a male visitor. They were there for maybe an hour or so. I waited until wee hours of the morning and proceeded to go into her bathroom and flipped the lights on. She screamed and I strangled her manually. I wasn’t wearing a mask at the time. She knew me casually. She liked to work in her yard, it was just a neighborly type thing."
    Waller: "Did she die?"
    Rader: "Yes. I went ahead and stripped her. She was nude and put her on a blanket. I went through some personal items at her house and figured out how to get her out of there. I eventually took her out to the trunk of the car and took her to the Christ Lutheran Church and took some pictures of her with a Polaroid. The police probably have those photographs. That was it. She was already dead, so I took some pictures of her in the bondage positions, and I think that’s what got me in trouble, was the bondage thing. After that, I moved her back out to the car and went east on 53rd."
    Waller: "What happened then?"
    Rader: "I tried to find a place to hide her body. . . and yes, I found a place between Webb and Greenwich and I laid some brush on top of her body." 5 minutes
    Rader: "Again, Vicki was one of the victims I went through those different phases and decided that day was the day. I used the telephone repairman ruse to get into her house. I went over there in my own personal car, approximately at lunch hour. I changed my clothes into what I called my hit clothes, things I’d need to get rid of later. I just called them hit clothes. I walked by one other address. As I approached the (Wegerle) house I heard a piano and told her I was fixing telephones in the area. I had a briefcase and a helmet. She let me in and I went over to the phone and simulated I was checking the phone. I had a make believe tool. She looked away and I drew a pistol on her. I took her back to the bedroom and she was kind of upset because I told her I was going to have to tie her up. I used some material from her bedroom and after I tied her hands, she started fighting. I finally got the hand on her and got the nylon stocking and started strangling her around the neck. I finally gained on her and thought she was dead, but she wasn’t. After I thought she was dead, I took three photos from her. She had mentioned something about her husband coming up. The dogs were going crazy. I had already gone through her purse and used her car to get away. I found out later that paramedics took her to the hospital, but she died. 10:04:09
    Rader: "On that particular day, I had some commitments. I left those and went to one place and changed my clothes, went to another place and left my car. I got my hit kit and walked to that residence. After spending some time in the residence, it was very cold. I finally threw something through the window and came on in."
    Waller: "So you used a stone to break the window?
    Rader: "Yes, sir. She came out of the bedroom and said a car had hit her house. I told her I was on the run and needed some food and a car and a warm up. I handcuffed her and told her I wanted some food and the keys to her car and calmed her down a little bit. I think she was still handcuffed. I went back to see where the car was. I then went back, took the handcuffs off and tied her up and strangled her. I went back to her room and took some personal items. I strangled her with pantyhose, kind of like Mrs. Hedge. I put her on a blanket and put her in the trunk of her car. I really had a commitment I needed to go to, so I moved her to one spot and took her out of her car. This gets complicated. The stuff I had like my clothes and a gun. I dumped that off and took her car back to her house. In the meantime, I dropped my gun and I had to go back to the house to find my gun. I took her keys and threw them on top of the roof. I walked from her car back to my car. Took my car and picked her up and dropped her off underneath a bridge."
  2. dasmi

    dasmi Member

    Feb 20, 2005
    Colorado Springs, CO
    That is disgusting, and exactly the reason I own guns, practice with guns, prepare myself mentally to defend myself, and attempt to educate others.
  3. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    That should be required reading for everyone who wants to disarm law-abiding American citizens.
  4. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

    Aug 11, 2005
    Elbert County, CO
    I have always had fears in the back of my mind that I would come home to find my wife assualted, so this is why I insist that she be proficient with a gun and keep one in her car. Hopefully she would notice something wasn't right before the BG got the drop on her (i.e., the dog going ape-sh**). I don't worry too much about myself becase I always have my firearm in my hand when I enter my house. I pity the folks that are less prepared and wind up as front page news or on on text files in forums such as this one. I refuse to be a victim.
  5. Horsesense

    Horsesense Member

    Apr 6, 2003
    Did y'all notice how they, the victims, all submitted because he let them think he was not going to kill them? If someone will break into your house he will also lie to you!

    It would have been nice if all that ever amounted to the BTK killer was a byline from 1974 "man shoots intruder after he forced his way in home"

    Or if the young woman had come out of the bathroom with her "shower gun"
  6. P95loser

    P95loser Member

    Jul 16, 2005
    Not really appropriate for THR.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2005
  7. 3rdpig

    3rdpig Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    This proves to me that Condition White is for sleep or death. Even at home with the doors locked, you better be prepared for someone like Rader, if he gets in and you're unprepared, you're dead.

    Your only chance of surviving an assault by someone like that, after they're in your home, is to have dogs that will attack, a gun in hand or both. Having your gun in a drawer in the nightstand when you're in the living room isn't good enough, you'll never get to it.

    I once had an aquaintance who, upon learning that I carried a gun at home, told me "You don't need a gun, you need a realtor". I wish I still knew him, I'd like to ask him to go to Wichita and see how that crap goes over there.

    I'm not saying we should live our lives in constant fear, but we should live them by the Boy Scouts motto of "Always be prepared".

    I like the quote attributed to Wyatt Earp for these events, something to the effect that most people will never need a firearm, but those that do will need one very badly. These people needed one very badly indeed!
  8. english kanigit

    english kanigit Member

    Sep 14, 2004
    Oklahoma - At the "Bubonic Bed and Breakfast" look
    Good friends of mine live five houses from where Rader did before his arrest. Last time he and I were at a gunshow, he had the opportunity to get an ol' .45. (1911 style, I don't know what kind. I was like 15 at the time...) The agreement that he made with SWMBO before going to the show was that he would buy no guns, after all, they lived in a nice place. The dealer had been lugging it from show to show for years and just wanted to get rid of it. I think he went down to $200 before we walked away. :eek:

    On the subject of Rader (hereaftertobereferedtoas: beast), up until tonight, I was of the opinion that the beast should be in public, on local tv, from a damned lamp post.
    After doing some thinking I've changed my mind. Stick the beast in a cell, completely isolated, nothing more than a single light fixture. Food and water to be dispensed from a machine in the wall. No human contact, total sensory depravation. I don't mean 'no human contact', I mean that the beast would have no idea if anyone else on the earth was even living...

    Monitor with CCTV to prevent the beast's suicide and wait. Maybe give the bastard a medical every year but nothing more...

    Maybe there are things worse than life entombed, but I can't really think of 'em... :mad:
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2005
  9. entropy

    entropy Member

    Feb 9, 2004
    G_d's Country, WI
    Naw, the guy would just sit there and replay his 'fantasies' over and over in his mind. True sensory deprivation woud be apropo for about 24 hours....enough to torture him, but not enough to drive him over the edge to the point of mentally escaping the physical portion of the torture regimen that should be inflicted.... :evil: This being the High Road, I'll not elaborate on that part. ;)
  10. ruger270man

    ruger270man Member

    Jan 6, 2005
    Erie, PA
    I wonder what the hell kind of gun he was using that he shot that Kevin guy twice in the head and he still ran away
  11. DelayedReaction

    DelayedReaction Member

    May 18, 2004
    Head wounds make a lot of blood. If he just nicked him on the side or something, it would look a lot worse than it really was.

    Frankly this is why I plan on having two dogs in my house. Rottweilers. Because if there's one thing intruders fear more than one dog, it's two dogs.
  12. english kanigit

    english kanigit Member

    Sep 14, 2004
    Oklahoma - At the "Bubonic Bed and Breakfast" look
    I don't know but the news people were showing a PPK or some similar gun when they were talking about it. But we all know how extensive the media's gun knowledge is... :rolleyes:

    Speaking of the newsies, they're getting even more of a hardon over this than the scum that did it. After the trial yesterday, they had a few words on camera with an investigator that's been on the case for several years. He expressed his concerns that they should spend more time on the families and their ordeal than keeping the animal in the limelight like they had been. :uhoh:
  13. Wayne D

    Wayne D Member

    Dec 28, 2002
    Christiansburg, VA
    It just fuels the fantasies of the other sicko's out there. :banghead:
  14. Geno
    • Contributing Member

    Geno Member

    Jun 11, 2005
    According to my CCW instructor...what REALLY kills:

    The officer who taught our CCW course, and the other officer who taught an advanced tactic course I studied, both stated that what kills most people is NOT the bullet, rather is it the "shock" effect. People have been so TV conditioned and movie conditioned to the visual effects therein, that when shot they believe that they almost required to die. They both cited cases in which medical examiners were puzzled by the death of the victim by a wound which medically should have been nothing more than a "minor injury".

    What is my point? Simple. We were taught that in our defensive mind-set and conditioning, that we MUST develope the conviction that we WILL NOT DIE...REFUSE TO DIE...before killing, or at the very least "marking" the bad guy who is trying to kill us, or our family. That sounds like the case of the man who (by the grace of God) escaped.

    Being a certified instructor of two styles of TKD, that is a mind-set I developed over my 25 years in the martial arts. That I possess my firearm at the point of being attacked or not is a mute point. If I die, I taking the BG with me. Verabizing that fact to a BG makes them (many times) think twice...they know they're in for a death-fight. I've been in such defensive situation 3 times in my life. If they are mentally able to process, they'll think twice. If they are altered chemically, they won't care. We taught our students to envision the potential attack, and prepare.

    To me, it is simply a mater of being prepared...being alert, and being WILLING to die in defense of self and family. The BGs study the victims..they seek the weak and those who will not fight. I'm not saying seek fights, in fact I always you shoudl always avoid them, but if forced into a defensive situation...BE A FIGHTER! FIGHT TO THE DEATH of the BG.

  15. shotgunner

    shotgunner member

    Feb 19, 2005

    Whatever they do to him, I hope he suffers miserably. I hope he suffers a thousand times than what those poor children did.
    This is why I have 00 buck at the ready.
  16. captlid

    captlid Member

    Jan 9, 2004
    ths is interesting

    i dont think guns would have helped these women :( They let themselves be tied up. In his confession he never mentioned even one of them attempting to physically resist. They need a mindset and awareness change first. Then the guns will be useful.
    Its like those horror movies. The woman is always running in fear screaming for her life, but that doesnt get rid of the problem permanently. And when there is a physical altercation rarely do you see the character pick up something that can be used as a weapon. Never enters the thought process.
  17. Slotback

    Slotback Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    It really is refreshing to see how many people "get it". Chance always favors the prepared mind. Which is summed by 3rdpig's observation of the Boy Scout motto "Always prepared". Faced with an emergency we always default back to our level of training. Or in most cases, the lack of training.
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