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Need an article on how "child murder rates" are skewed by the grabbers...

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Jim March, Aug 9, 2004.

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  1. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    We all know that a common Brady/VPC trick is to tally "children" up to age 21 or sometimes beyond who get shot, scream about how "chiiiiildren are being kiiiiiiled!" and hope the idiots listen think in terms of toddlers taking stray rounds instead of the usual reality where the "dead child" was a gangbanger with a long rap sheet.

    I know there have been studies rebutting this whole tactic and line of reasoning, but I'm having a hard time googling for same. Anybody got some good links?
     
  2. justashooter

    justashooter member

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  3. K-Romulus

    K-Romulus Member

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    Here's another (from Wash State)

    http://www.columbian.com/08052004/clark_co/173888.html

    Opinion - ASK the gun foes to be truthful

    Thursday, August 5, 2004
    ELIZABETH HOVDE Columbian staff writer

    *snip*

    Then, in the context that asking about guns in friends' homes saves lives, Vancouver Police Chief Brian Martinek said that 12 Clark County children were killed by firearms between 1997 and 2001.

    The statistic surprised me. I didn't recall reading about so many tragedies involving kids who came across firearms accidentally in those years. In 2003, 10-year-old Emily Randall of Battle Ground was killed by her 13-year-old brother, who picked up and fired his father's service pistol. But her death would be outside of the statistic for the five-year time period mentioned.

    *snip*

    So I asked the Health Department to crunch the data for me. When they did, John R. Sabel, with the department's Injury Prevention Program, confirmed that there were actually 13 deaths involving Clark County children and firearms in the time frame mentioned at the ASK press conference.

    And here are the numbers behind the number: None of these firearms deaths between 1997 and 2001 was unintentional as in kids playing with guns that they came across in a closet or some such. Further, the majority of these "Clark County children" were actually 18 or 19 years old. None of them was younger than 15.

    *snip/more*
     
  4. EricOKC

    EricOKC Member

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    Does a bear defacate in the woods?
     
  5. Shadowman

    Shadowman Member

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    Linky to articles


    another link
     
  6. SMMAssociates

    SMMAssociates Member

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    ...

    I don't have an article reference, but my usual "counter" is "Name Them."

    Two points:

    First of all when you consider the press coverage that a child getting shot tends to generate, if their numbers were even remotely accurate, places like CNN wouldn't have time to run any other news....

    Second, the age limits they use are silly. An 18-year-old can vote, buy a long gun, and a sixteen-year-old can (try to) drive a car. Some of those "statistics" go up to 25....

    Apparently one of those misled mommies groups did put up a web site purporting to answer my initial challenge and name the victims. I've not seen it myself, but a friend who's input I trust reported that some of the children were over 35....

    These are the same people who think that a flash hider makes a plinker into an "assault weapon", too.... Some of them just believe this stuff, and some are victims of the "big lie"....

    Flush the two Johns....
     
  7. Mute

    Mute Member

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  8. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    just roll on over to Wisqars and run the numbers yerself:
    http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html

    Code:
    2001, United States 
    Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000 
    All Races, 
    Both Sexes, 
    ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24, Y35.0,*U01.4 
    
    
    
    
                                                      Number of                    Crude
      Age Group            Race                          Deaths      Population     Rate
    
      00-04                White                             51      15,083,527     0.34
                           Black                             25       3,157,510     0.79
                           Am Indian/AK Native               5*         252,218    1.98*
                           Asian/Pac Islander                0*         870,300    0.00*
                                                   ------------  --------------  -------
                                                             81      19,363,555     0.42
    
      05-09                White                             61      15,685,101     0.39
                           Black                            16*       3,376,623    0.47*
                           Am Indian/AK Native               2*         283,614    0.71*
                           Asian/Pac Islander                0*         862,786    0.00*
                                                   ------------  --------------  -------
                                                             79      20,208,124     0.39
    
      10-14                White                            180      16,298,488     1.10
                           Black                             64       3,441,697     1.86
                           Am Indian/AK Native               5*         304,100    1.64*
                           Asian/Pac Islander                5*         866,155    0.58*
                                                   ------------  --------------  -------
                                                            254      20,910,440     1.21
    
      15-19                White                          1,418      15,960,676     8.88
                           Black                          1,033       3,134,488    32.96
                           Am Indian/AK Native               38         288,873    13.15
                           Asian/Pac Islander                34         887,275     3.83
                                                   ------------  --------------  -------
                                                          2,523      20,271,312    12.45
    
      -------------------                          ------------  --------------  -------
      Total                                               2,937      80,753,431     3.64
    
    
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    
    10 Leading Causes of Death, 
    2001, All Races, Both Sexes
    
    Age
    Group    Rank   Deaths    Cause of Death
    
    
    
    
    1-19 
             1       11,196   Unintentional Injury 
             2        2,640   Homicide 
             3        2,160   Malignant Neoplasms
             4        1,890   Suicide 
             5        1,188   Congenital Anomalies
             6         844    Heart Disease
             7         270    Influenza & Pneumonia
             8         234    Septicemia
             9         221    Chronic Low. Respiratory Disease
             10        210    Benign Neoplasms
    
    
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    
    2001 United States 
    Unintentional Injuries
    Ages 1-19, All Races, Both Sexes
    Total Deaths: 11,196
    
    
    
     Cause of Death                                                Number of Deaths
    
    
       MV Traffic                                                             7,208
       Drowning                                                               1,113
       Fire/burn                                                                558
       Poisoning                                                                487
       Suffocation                                                              315
       Other Land Transport                                                     269
       Pedestrian, Other                                                        211
       Fall                                                                     186
       Firearm                                                                  182
       Other Transport                                                          137
       Unspecified                                                              120
       Other Spec., classifiable                                                104
       Struck by  or Against                                                     99
       Natural/ Environment                                                      93
       Machinery                                                                 38
       Pedal cyclist, Other                                                      35
       Other Spec., NECN                          34
       Cut/pierce                                                                 7
     ------------------------------------------------------------  ----------------
     Total                                                                   11,196
    
    
    So for 2001, out of ~3000 firearm deaths in "Children", 182 are unintentional

    specific to California for 2001:
    Code:
    2001 California 
    [b]Unintentional Injuries[/b]
    Ages 1-19, All Races, Both Sexes
    Total Deaths: 964
    
    
    
     Cause of Death                                                Number of Deaths
    
    
       MV Traffic                                                               625
       Drowning                                                                 135
       Pedestrian, Other                                                         32
       Fire/burn                                                                 29
       Suffocation                                                               26
       Poisoning                                                                 19
       [b]Firearm                                                                   15[/b]
       Fall                                                                      14
       Other Land Transport                                                      14
       Unspecified                                                               12
       Pedal cyclist, Other                                                       9
       Struck by  or Against                                                      8
       Other Spec., classifiable                                                  7
       Other Transport                                                            7
       Natural/ Environment                                                       6
       Machinery                                                                  3
       Other Spec., NECN                           3
     ------------------------------------------------------------  ----------------
     Total                                                                      964
    
     
  9. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    YES!

    Great stuff, guys, thanks!
     
  10. Treylis

    Treylis Member

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    Yeah, I always laugh whenever somebody tries to use some of those in a debate and the study they cite has everyone 25 and under as a "child".
     
  11. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    Heres a typical Ceasefire MD report:
    Hello Wisqars!

    Who?
    Code:
    2001, Maryland 
    Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000 
    All Races, 
    Both Sexes, 
    ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34,X72-X74,X93-X95,Y22-Y24, Y35.0,*U01.4 
    
                              Number of                    Crude
      Age Group                  Deaths      Population     Rate
    
      00-04                          2*         358,370    0.55*
      05-09                          1*         381,872    0.26*
      10-14                          5*         402,990    1.24*
      15-19                          73         368,894    19.79
      20-24                         110         325,355    33.81
      25-29                         102         331,978    30.72
      30-34                          72         407,209    17.68
      35-39                          59         461,553    12.78
      40-44                          41         463,140     8.85
      45-49                          35         412,574     8.48
      50-54                          25         370,610     6.75
      55-59                         18*         283,181    6.35*
      60-64                         16*         208,836    7.66*
      65-69                         10*         169,730    5.89*
      70-74                         11*         151,892    7.24*
      75-79                         12*         129,202    9.28*
      80-84                         10*          87,895   11.37*
      85+                            5*          70,798    7.06*
      -------------------  ------------  --------------  -------
      Total                         [b]607[/b]       5,386,079    11.27
    
    so theres the 607, now lets look at part of how:
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Code:
    2001, Maryland 
    Suicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000 
    All Races, 
    Both Sexes, 
    ICD-10 Codes: X72-X74 
    
         Number of                    Crude     Age-Adjusted
            Deaths      Population     Rate           Rate**
    
               [b]220[/b]       5,386,079     4.08             4.11
    
    
    it seems to me the older "Children" are a problem:


    Code:
    
    2001, Maryland 
    Homicide/Legal Intervention Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000 
    All Races, 
    Both Sexes, 
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> 
    15 to 34 year olds
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    ICD-10 Codes: X93-X95,Y35.0, *U01.4 
    
                                 Number of                    Crude     Age-Adjusted
      Race                          Deaths      Population     Rate           Rate**
    
      White                             32         892,226     3.59             3.64
      Black                            249         455,748    54.64            55.20
      Am Indian/AK Native               0*           6,219    0.00*            0.00*
      Asian/Pac Islander                2*          79,243    2.52*            2.49*
      ----------------------  ------------  --------------  -------  ---------------
      Total                            283       1,433,436    19.74
    
    so out of 387 non suicide firearm deaths in Maryland in 2001,
    283 are 15-34 year olds

    Adding above 15 year olds into the group of "children" gives Sarah Brady her marketable 13 per day number.
     
  12. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    The CDC has a further breakdown in smaller age-segments for accidental deaths. For children 14 and under, it varies a bit in the neighborhood of some 120 to 140 per year. (Auto accidents claim around 3,000/yr; drowning, around 1,100/yr.)

    You can probably get there through Tuttle's link...

    Art
     
  13. UberPhLuBB

    UberPhLuBB Member

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  14. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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