Need duelling pair!

[PRD1]

I'm looking for a set of the reproduction Hamilton-Burr reproduction flintlock duellers - for shooting. I've trolled the 'net looking for a pair at a reasonable (not collector) price, and found several listed currently, of which two fall into that price range - one on a GunBroker auction and one listed by a pawnbroker in SC.
Neither possibility worked-out: the GB pair is a low-serial numbered set in which the manufacturer (Pedersoli) actually drilled a screw hole through the bottom of the barrel and into the bore (which pretty much disqualifies them for shooting in my book), while the dealer in SC flatly refused to ship the guns to me (repro flintlocks!).
In any case, I'm still looking, and would appreciate any help in locating a suitable, and available, pair of these guns.
Thanks;
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

 

[arcticap]

If the main reason for the deal falling through with the pawnbroker in South Carolina was due to him refusing to ship the pistols, then perhaps someone can act as your agent to complete the purchase on your behalf and then ship them to you for a reasonable fee.
One of the best options for finding such an agent would be to utilize the ATF's database of FFL holders. Simply try to locate a friendly FFL doing business in the same general area as the pawnbroker. They are usually the people most experienced with completing interstate gun transactions and trustworthy enough to send them your money in advance.
It would also be helpful to speak with the pawnbroker beforehand to obtain his cooperation so that the transaction can go smoothly. Either the pawnbroker would need to drop the guns off at the FFL, or the FFL would need to go and pick them up. A home based FFL may be more willing to spare some of his time to earn a reasonable fee.

 

[PRD1]

arcticap:

Thanks again (I think?)
I did consider the option of a 'trusted agent' under exactly those conditions, and discussed it on a couple of other forums, but finally decided against it. It would add another (and, really, unnecessary) level of complication to what should be a straightforward transaction. And adding an intermediary I don't know to act on my behalf in acquiring an item I can't inspect in-person is too likely to lead to misunderstanding and recrimination.
The pawnbroker in question (who is also an FFL and advertises handling transfers - presumably only incoming ones) also did nothing to build my confidence with his generally boneheaded 'company policy', and unwillingness to work with me on a sale of more than $1000, with no legal problems involved, so, on balance, I'd rather give him a pass, and look for a more reasonable seller I can work with directly.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

 

[Mike OTDP]

Are you determined to have a set of the Hamilton-Burr pistols? There are better choices out there.

 

[PRD1]

Mike OTDP:

I'm not fixated on the H-B pistols, but, so far as I can determine, they are the most authentic duelling pistols currently available at a fairly reasonable price. I've shot them, and like them. But what I really want, I guess, is at least one flint pistol of true duelling style and smoothbore of approximately 28 bore, with set trigger and stock/furniture appropriate to the 1780-1810 period.
I'd absolutely love to have an original, but finding one in really good shooting condition at a price I can convince myself I can afford is a practical impossibility.
Have you any specific recommendations? A modern custom pistol would be acceptable, if it meets the stated criteria. I'd appreciate any help you can give.
Thanks;
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

 

[Mike OTDP]

OK. Originals are very, very expensive. I don't shoot mine except in final training for the World Championships.

That being said, there are some good repros out there, if you can accept about .45 caliber. The smaller bores have better accuracy and less recoil. Pedersoli has the LePage, which has a solid competitive record. They also make the Boutet, Charles Moore, and Mortimer models, which are fine guns.

You may wind up having to order the gun specially, as most shooters in the United States want rifled guns. But the smoothbores are required for MLAIC matches, which the rest of the world shoots.

 

[PRD1]

Mike OTDP:

I certainly agree that the originals are expensive!
What set me off on this tangent is having been allowed to shoot a couple of originals lately: a Manton and a Nock, both percussion guns from the 1820s/early '30s, and both in about 28 bore. The same friend also has a Durs Egg officer's/duelling flintlock in carbine bore, which we've not yet had a chance to work-up, but is so nice I anticipate it will be equally excellent.
With charges of approximately 20-25 grains and roundball tightly patched, both of these guns shoot almost dead-on to their sights at 12-15 yards, and, with careful shooting, will stay in or on a 2" square at that range. In addition, these loads chronograph in the 750-780fps range, and are pleasant to shoot. In summary, I'm seriously impressed with the capabilities of the type, and want the best thing I can find of similar characteristics, but in flintlock, considering that system more typical of the serious duelling era.
I have trolled the various modern repro makers' web pages, and considered the various models they currently offer: the Charles Moore and the Mortimer are the nearest match (though the Boutet is certainly interesting in its Froggy way), but the caliber and barrel lengths are not quite what I have in mind.
Another party suggested the Hege-Manton, which is a really nice (discontinued) gun, but the only one I could find currently offered for sale was from a dealer in the U.K. - at 2800 pounds! And it, too, is of .45 caliber.
Is there any custom maker you can recommend who could make me a really good gun as-described?
Thanks;
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

 

[denster]

I have a set of the Hamilton Burr duelers that I bought off gunbroker for $1275. The proof codes date them at 1981. Very impressive and high quallity pistols. They of course were not worth their $3200 price in 1982 but they are a steal between 1200 and 1500 in todays dollars. You would have probably between $400 and $500 in the raw parts of the same quality to build just one pistol before you paid the gunsmith to build it today.

 

[Mike OTDP]

The Hege-Manton is a fantastic gun, but very much in demand for MLAIC competition. I shoot one myself.

Getting best accuracy out of a smoothbore usually requires a very heavy charge, 30-40 grains of 3Fg. But a good gun with the right load will comfortably hold a 2-inch group at 25 meters. Some will do better.

If you insist on a larger bore (which I do not recommend), you'll need a custom gunsmith. I'm not 100% current on who's working at this moment, and would recommend asking on the Traditional Muzzleloading forum.

 

[PRD1]

denster & Mike:

For denster:
Do you shoot your H-B pair, and, if so, how do they shoot? I assume they do not have any unwanted 'features' in the bore? I agree that the current price is sometimes attractive, and that's one reason I'm looking for a set!

Mike:
I haven't shot smoothbores extensively enough to be entitled to an opinion on how to get the best out of them - my competition shooting has been with rifled percussion pistols and revolvers, and I still have the Hege-Siber I shot many years ago in Germany: it's the most accurate M/L pistol I've ever owned or shot.
But my intention for the dueller is not competition, per-se, but to shoot for my own edification, enjoyment, and to gain more familiarity with flintlocks. As I said, shooting those originals at duelling ranges and with duelling loads impressed me with the excellence of the type for its intended purpose, and I'd like at least one of my own capable of that kind of performance. If I can acquire a flintlock which does as well as those percussion duellers, I'll be very pleased.
I will ask the folks at the M/L forum for recommendations, as I've already asked them for help finding the H-B pistols.
Thanks;
mhb - MIke

 

[denster]

Actually they shoot very well. The construction and quality of parts is very high. They were touted as being exact duplicats of the original set and I can believe it.

As to unwanted features in the bore. The screw that holds on the brass forepiece is drilled through into the barrel and the bore reamed to final finish afterward. I would say that the originals were also made that way. It has no effect on anything either from a functional standpoint or a safety standpoint.

 

[PRD1]

denster:

I'm glad they shoot well for you.
Yes, they were supposed to be exact duplicates of the original, but I'd be absolutely flabbergasted, amazed, dumfounded (insert preferred word indicating utter, shocked disbelief) to know that the originals had any such 'feature'.
I have over the last 45 years or so examined a large number of original, historic muzzleloading weapons, long and short, absolutely none of which exhibited any holes drilled through and into the bore for any purpose except ignition - at the breech end. I don't even recall any M/L shotgun having the modern-type bead threaded-in near the muzzle.
In addition, I'm a barrel maker, and can't imagine any valid reason for having unnecessary holes into the bore of a single-shot muzzleloader, though I am aware of freak types such as the 'roman candle', superposed loading arms which did have multiple flashholes/nipples required by their design. I refuse to believe that Wogdon, Barton or any of their contemporaries would have done such a thing, though as the originals still exist, I suppose the point is susceptible of proof.
I will say definitely that I am not interested in any muzzleloader, reproduction or original, which does have any such hole or holes drilled into the bore.
PRD1 - mhb - mike

 

[dprice3844444]

http://search.aol.com/aol/search?qu...tion+flintlock+duellers&s_it=keyword_rollover

 

[denster]

Mike

You are of course entitled to your opinion. However I would be amazed if the originals did not have this feature. Consider that the originals were transported to Italy to the Uberti firm. There they were dissasembled, photographed and measured in detail. If you have ever examined a set of the reproductions and noted the complicated details of the lock, set trigger, engraving and how well executed they are it is beyond belief that Uberti, who was commisioned to produce 2000 sets of exact duplicates, would fudge on such an uncomplicated detail.
At the location of the screw there is .100 of barrel wall thickness which gives you more than adequate strength and the end of the screw was dressed in the final reaming to match the bore contoure so there is no effect on preformance. Remember these had to pass proof before they could leave Italy.
They may not suit your requirments and that is fine. They shoot well and satisfy me.
For your information my serial number is over 1000 so this is likely present in all sets.

 

[PRD1]

denster:

Without access to the original pistols, or authoritative information on the point, I suppose it will remain moot.
I do not have your level of confidence in the Italian gunmakers, having seen a number of really odd things in their reproductions: some due to their overall quality control (?), some due to their lack of understanding of the reasons for doing things in a certain way as opposed to the most convenient and/or economic way.
One of my more notable adventures with 'high grade' Italian guns was my attempt to procure one of the Pedersoli double hammer rifles (sold as the Kodiak) in .45-70 as a shooter (sigh). They are not inexpensive, but not as much so as the best Continental DRs. I ordered one. On arrival, it looked like a million dollars, but on inspection, the bores looked like they had been gnawed-out by rats. In addition, the groove diameters of both barrels were .455", rather than the standard for the cartridge (and it is a U.S. cartridge for which our standards for bore and groove diameter should be used) of .457" to .458". To be fair, I shot it, after taking the trouble to determine from Pedersoli exactly what ammunition they had been zeroed with, and at what range (300 grain Winchester HP at 50 meters). At that range, and with that ammunition, both barrels showed tipping of the bullet, and grouped not at all, individually or together - at 75 yards, the bullets keyholed. I conducted an extensive correspondence with both the importer/distributor and Pedersoli in Italy. Pedersoli was not impressed or dismayed. The distributor, to his credit, shipped me THREE more sets of barrels (all his remaining stock) for inspection and measurement (knowing I'm a barrelmaker). Not one of them was any better than the first. Again, the importer, being an honest man, allowed me to return the rifle for a full refund. All of this, plus my full correspondence with Pedersoli was reported on the NitroExpress web site.
Another example of the Italian way of doing things is the recently introduced (and dropped) Beretta repro of the Colt Lightning rifle, which they chose to make without a bolt latch (!), permitting the breech to be opened even with the hammer cocked and a round in the chamber: why did they think Colt (and every other maker of slide-action arms I know of) built a slide latch into the guns?
The fact that your set of the H-B pistols is as high-numbered as they are (and I appreciate the information) makes me think that the condition I object to may be true of all of the type, and that I'll have to give up the idea of buying them once and for all.
I actually have inspected and shot a pair of these guns, but was not aware of the condition I see as a problem until I finally began looking for them seriously.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

 

[PRD1]

deleted - duplicate

 

[denster]

Mike

I guess we are just going to have to agree to dissagree. Since you have handled and shot the HB duelers and were considering a pair untill you noted the drilled through barrel I guess you agree they are excellent otherwise.
I'm surprised at your experience with the Pedersolli Kodiak 45-70. I've owned one for more than twelve years. Both barrels slug out to .457 and are well regulated with factory 405gr loads shooting rights and lefts into less than 4" at75yds. With my handloads of gas checked hard cast 405gr bullets over Reloader#7 I can do the same at 100yds.

 

[PRD1]

denster:

That's fair.
I did (and do) think the H-B pistols are well made and nicely finished, as well as being authentic as to detail - which is why I'd been trying to buy a pair until I realized there might be a problem I can't get over. Oh, well...
It would be fair to say that I, too, was surprised ( bloody amazed) at the Pedersoli double rifle debacle: they are nice guns otherwise. I still can't believe Pedersoli would try to save a few lira by using really poor barrels, but there it is.
I solved the fun DR problem by obtaining one of the few Remington/Baikal 45-70s which were imported and distributed a few years ago - its barrels are much better, and the design allows for tweaking the barrel alignment for regulation with different loads. It's also very light, but shoots as well as I'd hoped the Kodiak would, though it's no thing of beauty - still, it cost under a third of what the Pedersoli was going for. And for more serious uses, I have a Merkel .500NE, about which I have no complaints at all.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike