Need HELP w/ Savage Axis .308 build please

[CMV]

So I'm working on a new Savage Axis II in .308. About done with everything but am having a serious accuracy problem that I can't figure out. Last 2 range trips this is what happens. With 3 or 4 shot strings I get 2 'perfect' shots and 2 that are 4-5" high. So a 3 shot string will have 2 touching or almost touching holes, then one directly above or below about 5". a 4-shot string is 2 perfect, 2 high/low and touching/almost touching. The high/low shots are perfectly inline with the other shots, just high/low.

I was shooting off a bench @ 100 yds with small sandbag rests front & back. Using the 3-9x40 Weaver Kaspa & rings that came with the gun. I had both off and reinstalled with blue loctite. The mounts on receiver, rings to the mounts, rings to the scope are all torqued (snug, not ape, not measured w/ torque wrench) & loctite'd.

I cut the barrel back to about 18", threaded 5/8-24, and recrowned. I did all those operations without breaking setup and barrel was indicated in lathe off a pin gauge in the bore. Crown looks fine.

I ditched the factory plastic stock & put it in a Boyd's thumbhole. I have not glass bedded the pillars or action yet. But I did check and none of the stock is touching the barrel - it free floats as it should.

So no idea what would cause this. If I were reading this post from someone else, I'd say "you have a loose scope numnutz. Fix that & your problem will go away" or "Watch your breathing noob". And that very well may be the issue, but I have checked & re-checked and everything seems 'right'.

Ammo is handloads. Today I shot 20 rds, 10 of 125gr Speer TNT & 10 of 165gr Hornady BTSP. Both with IMR 4895, new LC brass. Every charge was measured, care was taken when loading. This should be good, consistent ammo.

I'm not new to tinkering with guns, shooting from a bench, or loading for accuracy. I get 2" or smaller groups from my rem 700 @ 300 yds and have done similar work to it as I'm doing to this Axis.

Just for my own peace of mind, rifle is getting torn down & barrel going back into lathe. I'll re-cut the crown just in case. But I think a bad crown job would have it spitting in a random pattern, not half perfect shots, half 5" high but also grouped tight.

Will also tear the scope mounts apart and re-mount everything with extreme care.

I don't have a Savage barrel nut wrench but will have to buy or borrow one and check the barrel nut. I've had ARs make vertical strings from a slightly loose barrel nut. The way this makes a consistent hi/low pattern I doubt that's it, but easy enough to check.

What else? I must be missing something, just no idea what????

 

[MaineGlock]

Sounds like a scope issue. With the money dropped into a Boyd's stock, maybe going with some higher end rings couldn't hurt.

 

[aubie515]

If you bought a package deal...throw away the rings and optics as Savage's packages use some really cheap parts.

My Axis had a bunch of metal shavings when I removed the barrel. I could not reuse the barrel nut because of all the metal shavings, so be warned. Unless Savage actually address this in their Axis line.

When I read someone having accuracy issues...I always look at these items in this order.

1) scope base/scope rings/optics/screw spacing...make sure you torqued properly and have quality items (ditch what came with Savage package).

2) look at ammo being used...I'd stay in the 150gr-180gr as your Axis is more than likely a 1:10 twist barrel.

3) check head spacing/crown

I have the GO gauge along with the barrel nut wrench and action vise. I'd offer to loan it to you with a security deposit, but I may have to use it as a local gunowner is having the same issue as you.

 

[redbullitt]

I would look at the stock. Any chance there could be a bind or tension there at the action? Barrel is floated, but how is where the action sits? The screws and their holes all good? How about where the recoil lug sits?

Maybe try the old stock or a different one to help rule out an issue there.

Beyond that, look at one thing at a time and swap it out, see if you can get a change.

Try a new base, rings, scope, one at a time. Try different ammunition, maybe your rifle doesnt like what you are feeding it. Not totally unusual... I have had some great shooting rifles REALLY get indigestion from some loads.

 

[CMV]

Thanks. I sold the factory stock so can't slap it back on & see what happens.

I don't have the action screws very tight. There was a warning that came with the stock & I think I remember same thing in the Axis manual to not go ape on the action screws. The rear one at the trigger guard is probably around 30 in-lbs - not finger tight, but not strongly fastened down. Gentle finger pressure on allen key. The front is a little lighter since any tighter I can't get the mag to lock in or release properly. I had to make a .045" spacer to sit under the pillar bushing that came with the stock to be able to put any torque on that one. Otherwise, just finger tight on the front action screw & the mag wouldn't clip in place - if it it would, it would not come back out without prying.

The stock seems ok - barreled action just drops in. Action screws engage straight in - don't look like they're trying to go in at an angle or anything. I don't know much about bolt action rifles & their stock fitment. My 700 went into a Choate that has an aluminum bedding block. This stock has nothing like that. I'm metal on wood everywhere the stock contacts the receiver. I am engaging the recoil lug well - the area around it is scuffed up like something is sloppy & there is movement in that area. With everything in place but no action screws installed there is a very slight front-to-back movement where you can feel the play around the action block. It is minimal - maybe .005". The recoil lug doesn't have an interference fit in the gap behind the barrel nit, but there is only minimal clearance.

I do plan to bed the pillars at least. Possibly the action. But wanted to wait to see how it did without so I could see if there were any gains from doing either.

 

[ford8nr]

Front action screw needs to be more then finger tight.
I found my Axis 223 had a REALLY long throat. Std ammo length is 2.26 I had to load to 2.40 to get to the lands. Once I developed a load it shoots under .75" 5 shots at 100yds.
I had factory base issues originally, replaced rings and bases and things improved.
You say you're in a Boyd's stock but I could get big POI shifts with the original factory stock by change of front bag position. Be cognazent of your bag position shot to shot and see if that helps.

 

[cdb1]

Could it be shot stringing from the barrel heating up? Since you have the first two shots good to go, on more than one range trip it doesn't sound like a scope, base or rings issue. I could be wrong.

 

[Haxby]

If you have another scope handy, you could swap scopes. Or try the Kaspa on a different rifle to see if it works.
Could try different rings, and rings don't cost much.
Since you're planning to bed the stock/pillars/action, might as well do that.

 

[shooter1niner]

Action screws sound too loose. Mag not locking in? Flexing the receiver? Bed receiver then lug.

 

[CMV]

So re-cut the crown, reassembled & used a torque wrench, removed scope, rings, & bases and reinstalled from scratch. Extra careful loading up 20 more rds for it.

Same behavior. I did notice I got the hi/low groupings with the front bag up close pretty much right at the magazine. When I moved the front bag out to the 1st sling stud I got more of a random 4" group. <sigh>

So new rings on order & should be here tomorrow or Weds. Ordered a couple boxes of different factory ammo just to rule my handloads out. I'll put one of my known good Nikon Monarchs on the new rings.

In the meantime (and excuse me not knowing the exact technical terms) I made new pillars (? - what the action screws go through) out of 7075 AL. Drilled out the stock to accommodate the fatter size I made them. The plastic insert thing that came with the Boyd's is now one piece of AL and extends all the way up to the receiver. So I have all metal-metal contact at the front action screw by the locking lug. The rear one at the trigger guard is all metal-metal except the plastic trigger guard in between the screw head and the pillar I made. An added benefit is the magazine is much easier to insert & remove with my AL piece vs the plastic piece that came with the stock.

I relieved a little around the stock everywhere. Originally it needed a little wiggling to drop in place. So I messed with it to find the spots where it felt like it was wanting to hang up a little when dropping the barreled action into stock. Then a very small amount of material removal everywhere except right at where the tang & place where front action screw is. Very little removal & mostly just a chamfer - .005-.010" in any one plane. Everything now just drops in freely.

Then I gouged up around the pillars being careful not to touch the AL parts I made & where the receiver rests against the wood. Bedded all that with JB Weld (fancy....I know). Let it set up & everything is apart & waiting for final cure now. Looked like I did a decent job for never having done it before. A few little spots were I must have had air pockets, but overall probably a much better mating surface than before.

Only little issue that remains is I cannot get the rear action screw (one that goes thru trigger guard) torqued to 30-35 in-lbs. Because I'm sandwiching that plastic between metal at about 20 in-lbs it starts to deform and any more torque will split it. I guess I need to drill that out, make a metal insert to press fit, and then epoxy that in place. That or find a metal trigger guard for that model of Boyd's stock - anyone know where to get one?

Hopefully one or all these things combined will cure this danged rifle. I REALLY wish I had shot it for groups prior to doing anything. Not having that baseline out of the box was a mistake. For all I know, it was this poor off the assembly line and isn't because of something I did (doubtful, but you never know). Anyway, if it still acts this way come this weekend I guess I'll have a real pretty paperweight since I'm all out of ideas.

 

[bric2000]

I cut the barrel back to about 18", threaded 5/8-24, and recrowned. I did all those operations without breaking setup and barrel was indicated in lathe off a pin gauge in the bore. Crown looks fine.


I don't have a Savage barrel nut wrench but will have to buy or borrow one and check the barrel nut. I've had ARs make vertical strings from a slightly loose barrel nut. The way this makes a consistent hi/low pattern I doubt that's it, but easy enough to check.

What else? I must be missing something, just no idea what????

I am curious how you cut the barrel and threaded and cut the crown without a barrel nut wrench? Did you not remove the action from the barrel?

 

[CMV]

I am curious how you cut the barrel and threaded and cut the crown without a barrel nut wrench? Did you not remove the action from the barrel?

my spindle bore is large enough that I can fit the barrel and receiver through. so end of barrel in 4 jaw chuck, receiver secured with spider at other end of spindle. Have to remove trigger group and scope mounts.

 

[ford8nr]

If moving the front bag changed the POI significantly you still have stock issues. My factory stock did this until I bedded and stiffened it.
Concentrate on one thing at a time, make one change at a time and test fire again. My guess is the action is shifting in the stock. Make sure you have good bedding in the recoil lug area. The stock should not DROP freely into a well bedded stock.

 

[ford8nr]

So new rings on order & should be here tomorrow or Weds.

Did you order new bases too?
The factory bases on my Axis were pure junk. They were screwed and epoxied to the gun and weren't in true alignment.

Stick with it. When you get the bugs worked out they can be real shooters.

 

[CMV]

The bases seem ok for 2 pieces. sit without any kind of rocking front/back side/side. Appear to be contoured perfectly to fit receiver. bottoms are ground well with a very smooth and even surface finish. Other than stepping up to a solid 1-piece don't see a benefit to replacing. they don't appear to be riding on a high spot or otherwise ill-fitting.

 

[CMV]

Ordered the steel trigger guard from boyds. Why they sell it separate or don't offer as an upgrade when ordering I have no idea. In fact, they should stop the plastic period and just have you choose black or stainless. Had to email cs to get product # - searched their site and could not find so assumed they didn't have. oddly no offer for discount or replacement of their plastic one that failed.

 

[cdb1]

I've seen barrels start stringing on the third or fourth shot if not allowed to cool.

 

[CMV]

That could be. I'm not rapid firing, but not taking minutes between shots. Shoot, reposition rear bag, get settled on target, a breath or two, shoot again. Barrel is pretty thin - had to cut it back a decent amount just to get to .625 thickness for threading. So that might be part of it. But I am walking 100 yds downrange between every 4 shots & then loading mag & getting set back up for next group. I shoot my 700 a lot more & heating up doesn't seem to hurt it's accuracy any but .223 so there's 20gr less powder burning each shot.

Will see how it does now that some improvements [hopefully] have been made. New rings & some factory ammo will be here tomorrow so might be able to take it to range after work Thurs or Fri. Will take my .30 cal suppressor too & see if that extra weight on the end has any positive effect. My 700 actually groups a little tighter suppressed.

 

[cdb1]

If you are taking plenty of time between shots then barrel heating is not the issue IMO. I've been guilty of forgetting to let the barrel cool before and my groups definitely got larger.

 

[denton]

One possible cause: One or more base screws are bottoming out on the barrel rather than snugging down. If so, when you take the base off, you will see its outline rubbed into the bluing underneath.

Another cause: Some base designs have cross bolts that are just staked into the base. If you over torque the nuts, it will pull the cross bolt loose. That's hard to catch.

 

[ford8nr]

If it was me I wouldn't add the can at this point, just one more variable to deal with.
The problem you're chasing won't be corrected by a can IMHO.
You might have to come to grips with at this point it's at least a 4 MOA gun. 4 shot groups don't prove much. 5 shot groups are better, 10 better yet. The first 2 shots touching might be the oddities, a bigger shot sampling shot at a slow pace watching barrel temp would help solve your problem.
Having tuned an Axis from a 4-6" group factory stocked gun to a under 1" gun tells me to look at the bases and more so the stock fit.

 

[ford8nr]

Here's my build and others in put


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bought-a-savage-axis-as-a-project.766879/

 

[ford8nr]

Any progress on your Axis quest ?

 

[CMV]

kind sorta. short range trip yesterday. 2" groups with ppu 150gr soft points and fed 180gr soft points about 2.5". so cut groups in half but still poor.

2 observations. Front bag placement still has effect on group size and poi but not as severe as before.

I think scope might be the issue. Was several inches high after remounting with new rings. about a dozen clicks and stayed high. Thought maybe I just thought about adjusting while walking back to bench and forgot to actually do it. So another dozen clicks. Stayed several inches high. turret not bottomed or anything but roughly enough to drop 6+ inches but holes stayed at same spot.

Figured I'd just swap a known good scope but nothing else will fit! rings I bought are the fat ones with 6 screws each. as far apart as the mounts are I don't have any scopes with 6" of untapered tube length. have a 1-piece base ordered along with a dnz 1-piece mount with integrated rings. It is on back order for a week so will just use the 1-piece base so I can get existing rings closer together and test again with better scope

 

[stillquietvoice]

So I'm working on a new Savage Axis II in .308. About done with everything but am having a serious accuracy problem that I can't figure out. Last 2 range trips this is what happens. With 3 or 4 shot strings I get 2 'perfect' shots and 2 that are 4-5" high. So a 3 shot string will have 2 touching or almost touching holes, then one directly above or below about 5". a 4-shot string is 2 perfect, 2 high/low and touching/almost touching. The high/low shots are perfectly inline with the other shots, just high/low.

I was shooting off a bench @ 100 yds with small sandbag rests front & back. Using the 3-9x40 Weaver Kaspa & rings that came with the gun. I had both off and reinstalled with blue loctite. The mounts on receiver, rings to the mounts, rings to the scope are all torqued (snug, not ape, not measured w/ torque wrench) & loctite'd.

I cut the barrel back to about 18", threaded 5/8-24, and recrowned. I did all those operations without breaking setup and barrel was indicated in lathe off a pin gauge in the bore. Crown looks fine.

I ditched the factory plastic stock & put it in a Boyd's thumbhole. I have not glass bedded the pillars or action yet. But I did check and none of the stock is touching the barrel - it free floats as it should.

So no idea what would cause this. If I were reading this post from someone else, I'd say "you have a loose scope numnutz. Fix that & your problem will go away" or "Watch your breathing noob". And that very well may be the issue, but I have checked & re-checked and everything seems 'right'.

Ammo is handloads. Today I shot 20 rds, 10 of 125gr Speer TNT & 10 of 165gr Hornady BTSP. Both with IMR 4895, new LC brass. Every charge was measured, care was taken when loading. This should be good, consistent ammo.

I'm not new to tinkering with guns, shooting from a bench, or loading for accuracy. I get 2" or smaller groups from my rem 700 @ 300 yds and have done similar work to it as I'm doing to this Axis.

Just for my own peace of mind, rifle is getting torn down & barrel going back into lathe. I'll re-cut the crown just in case. But I think a bad crown job would have it spitting in a random pattern, not half perfect shots, half 5" high but also grouped tight.

Will also tear the scope mounts apart and re-mount everything with extreme care.

I don't have a Savage barrel nut wrench but will have to buy or borrow one and check the barrel nut. I've had ARs make vertical strings from a slightly loose barrel nut. The way this makes a consistent hi/low pattern I doubt that's it, but easy enough to check.

What else? I must be missing something, just no idea what????

I would look at the stock. Any chance there could be a bind or tension there at the action? Barrel is floated, but how is where the action sits? The screws and their holes all good? How about where the recoil lug sits?

Maybe try the old stock or a different one to help rule out an issue there.

Beyond that, look at one thing at a time and swap it out, see if you can get a change.

Try a new base, rings, scope, one at a time. Try different ammunition, maybe your rifle doesnt like what you are feeding it. Not totally unusual... I have had some great shooting rifles REALLY get indigestion from some loads.