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need low flash 9mm powder

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by taliv, Sep 5, 2016.

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  1. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Many of the guys that shoot indoor USPSA matches around here use VV N320 in their 9mm loads. I rarely see any muzzle flash from them.

    I shoot a lot of Silhouette, though not in 9mm. It's less flashy than HS-6 or AA#7 (my prior powders), but there's still a bit of orange. It's not dramatic or like a flashbulb firing. For a powder that produces a fairly large amount of gas, it's low flash... but I think it's never going to be as low flash as a truly fast powder that doesn't produce a large volume of gas in the first place.
     
  2. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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  3. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Is AA#2 really that low flash? That upsets me ever more now since Accurate Powders are almost none existent where I live. I like Accurate Powders and currently use AA#5 and AA5744 and would use more if I could easily find them. I got those two at Cabela's but they only had those and two other rifle powders.
     
  4. sbwaters
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    sbwaters Contributing Member

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    You should have seen the light show my .45 max loaded Power Pistol put on.

    Try Silhouette.
     
  5. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    AA#2 has been marketed specifically as a low flash powder ideal for conceal carry or self defense loads. At one time the bottle said this.

    I've used it for years and it's a great powder for just about everything. You won't get max velocity but you will get perfect metering and accurate loads.

    If it weren't for the pesky hazmat laws I would send you a lb to try. I have a sufficient amount to keep me occupied for the near future.
     
  6. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Thanks for the good thoughts. I use a lot of W231 but there would be no reason not to use AA#2 for ammo used in low light situations, even though I don't do much of it.

    I will find some to try now that I'm going to actively look for it, thanks again.
     
  7. bds

    bds Member

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    Per PM from taliv, will be testing Promo, BE-86 and CFE Pistol with plated/coated bullets through NV scope at low light/dark.

    If all goes well, perhaps next range trip early this week.
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    AA #2 is the poor man's N-320. Good stuff. I really like it. One of the least position sensitive powder out there as well.
     
  9. IMtheNRA

    IMtheNRA Member

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    I shoot quite a bit in the dark, using flashlights, both indoors and outside. I found that my 9mm powder, Viht N340, produces no visible yellow flame at all. Just a very faint pale blue ring that emanates from the muzzle. I load 115-gr bullets at close to max charge for about 1150 fps, fired from a Hi Power during night practice.
     
  10. sellersm

    sellersm Member

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    I also agree with VV N340 as a low flash powder! Use it a lot as well.

    There was a guy who did some high-speed photos of various powders, and HS-6 was the lowest flash of various powders. It was for 357sig though, not 9mm, but the results were pretty compelling. I believe the powders he photographed were HS-6, Longshot, AA 9 and one other (can't recall). Don't think his website is up & running any more, though...
     
  11. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I remember discussions about VV powders being very low flash, that's why I mentioned VV in my post about asking the companies. I had a feeling they would be the best choice.
     
  12. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    That's an interesting analogy. I've not used n320 before so I couldn't compare. #2 is very good in 38 special or 45 acp where there are small charges and big cases, 45 Colt too.
     
  13. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    only vv i have laying around is n540 and n133. I do have some hp-38 as well, but didn't really intend to use it. I mostly use it for subsonic rifle loads from many years ago.
     
  14. bds

    bds Member

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    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  15. fields

    fields Member

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    I was shooting at dusk one nite, and was shocked at the VV powders.
     
  16. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    update:

    i tried about 100 rounds of CFE Pistol, with 115g polymer coated bullet, with charge weights from 5.0 to 5.3, cci #500 primers

    it could reasonably be considered "low flash" in comparison to tactical nukes, solar flares and janet jackson halftime shows.

    otherwise, it seemed to have just as much smoke and way, way more flash than the CSB-1M that I am currently using. Also, recoil was a bit snappier at 5.3, so i backed it down to 5.0 and that was very similar feel to 4.3g of CSB-1M

    here's a brief video comparison, alternating 3 rounds of each starting with CFE-Pistol
     
  17. bds

    bds Member

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    taliv, I got to do the low light/night muzzle flash testing with night vision scope and here are my findings.

    Four loads were tested using Glock 22/KKM 40-9 conversion barrel (10 rounds of each load were fired):

    HP-38 4.8 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ @ 1.130" - This load was used as reference and produced 4" long by 2" high orange colored muzzle flash from the side (Shooter's point of view - 1.5" round flash).

    Promo 3.8-4.0 gr RMR 124 gr HM RN @ 1.150" - 1" long by 1" high faint orange colored muzzle flash (Shooter's POV - 0.5" round flash). In low light, muzzle flash was almost non-detectable.

    BE-86 5.2 gr RMR 124 gr HM RN @ 1.150" - 2" long by 3" high bright orange muzzle flash (Shooter's POV - 3" round flash). This was by far the brightest muzzle flash of four powders tested.

    CFE-Pistol
    5.2 gr RMR 124 gr HM RN @ 1.150" - 1" long by 2" high orange colored muzzle flash (Shooter's POV - 2" round flash).

    The night vision scope (Night Owl XGenPro) was used with infrared illuminator on lowest setting. I tested the scope focused at 50 yards, 25 yards and 10 feet and the infrared illuminator kept the background so bright that muzzle flash from four powder loads really did not make any difference on illuminated background.

    Due to transmission going out on our Suburban, time was limited and coated bullets were not tested but based on the range test, Promo should provide lowest muzzle flash coated bullet loads for night vision equipment sensitive to muzzle flash.

    I hope this helped.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  18. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    awesome thanks for testing!

    so now CFE-Pistol and BE-86 are out of contention. That leaves Promo and maybe the Silhouette that was mentioned early on. I'll try to find some of those in stock, maybe at the gun show tomorrow.
     
  19. Dudedog
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    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Oh well out to lunch on CFE-P but it does appear to have a little flash than BE86 when BDS tested.

    Hard to see muzzle flash in the daytime where I am at and the sun is so bright you could fry eggs on the sidewalk:eek:
    You might notice a small tactical nuke going off close by in the daytime here....if it was really close:)

    So promo was best in the test, hhmmm
    This makes me think the best place to look would be for powders on the fast side of 9mm powders.
    VV powders are mentioned as low flash here so I wonder if maybe the Single base powders have less flash in general??

    Looks like AA#2 (fast) and N320 (fast single base) might be worth trying.

    Nice vid of the flash, thanks for posting it for us all, and thanks to BDS for the test.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  20. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  21. styles

    styles Member

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    If you like and want aa#2 and can't find it, try the clean shot by shooters world.
     
  22. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    That's all I use. I quit buying AA#2 from western.
     
  23. rodregier

    rodregier Member

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    Too bad the lucky gunner article only tested a few factory loadings and not any cannister-grade propellants
     
  24. rodregier

    rodregier Member

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    The double-base propellents tend to have burning deterents as surface coatings to move the pressure peak down the barrel. That would also tend to move the flash down the barrel too.

    I suspect the single-based VV powders don't have much in the way of rate-altering coatings which would be a good thing WRT muzzle flash.
     
  25. bds

    bds Member

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    If anyone wants me to do further low light/night time muzzle flash testing with different powders for comparison, let me know.

    Keep in mind that powder manufacturers may add flash suppressants to powders because they produce too large/bright of muzzle flash. So even with flash suppressant added, they may still produce larger/brighter muzzle flash than other powders as low light/night time testing showed.
     
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