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Need M1 Garand inspection

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by aggiejet, Feb 23, 2014.

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  1. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    I recently started shooting my M1 Garand that I got from the DCM (now CMP) back in the early 90's. (yes I know, but please don't hate me. better late than never) I am having problems with accuracy and loading clips.

    My accuracy issue can be quantified by saying I can't repeatedly hit a 12" target from a bench rest at 100 yards and no groupings whatsoever. Spraying bullets everywhere.( I am shooting reloads of 150 gr Sierra with 50 gr of 4064.)

    So I took to cleaning the barrel last weekend. I am using Tipton's bore solvent by alternating soaked patches and nylon bore brush. I never got a soaked patch to run thru clean, so I gave up, dry patched the bore and coated with Hoppes 9 oil. I returned again yesterday and reengaged bore cleaning operations. For several passes with Tipton soaked patches, a LOT of blue was showing up on the patches. Then later, only lots of black stuff, no blue. After about two hours or so, I again gave up, dry patched the barrel and coated with oil.

    I tried visually inspecting the barrel for some reference. I can see crud (rust?) in the barrel still, and it doesn't look shiny like the barrel of the two Savage bolt action rifles I cleaned in that same manner. However, due to design, it is a lot harder to get light into the Garand barrel. Another curious observation is that while I slowly withdraw the cleaning rod with a brush attached to the rod, the rod will rotate slowly for about the first 1/2 of the barrel, (starting at the chamber) and then stop rotating the last 1/2 of travel till the brush exits the muzzle. i.e. It appears the brush can't bite the grooves the last part of the barrrel. I can physically see the grooves with visual inspection in the last portion of the barrel.

    So, based on that, I am thinking I would like an expert to look this gun and barrel over. I need to know is the barrel ruined, and why are the clips so hard to load.

    Can anybody recommend a M1 expert? I live in NE Oklahoma, and feel like this is beyond the scope of a a local gunsmith, unless someone can tell me different. I can drive it to them or mail it I guess, although I am hesitant to do that.

    Thanks for your time
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  2. Kp321

    Kp321 Member

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    The bad news is it sounds like the barrel is toast. M1 barrels suffer from cleaning rod wear since they are cleaned from the muzzle. If you can find someone with a muzzle wear gauge, see how bad it really is. Some barrels can be restored to reasonable accuracy by recrowning.
    The good news is there are scads of good to new barrels available and they normally will index and headspace correctly.
     
  3. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    What does that mean, "cleaning rod wear"? I am new to shooting and cleaning rifles. I see at Garand Gear they recommend a cable system (by OTIS) to clean the bore to prevent what you said. I am just curious what damage you are doing with a rod?

    Thanks
     
  4. BBBBill

    BBBBill Member

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    The Army taught us to clean, clean, clean and then clean some more. Since the M-1 is cleaned from the muzzle, the side of the cleaning rod would drag on the edge of the crown. Steel on steel. Wear was inevitable. I used the M-1 and M-14 in ROTC, never after I got in service, but we cleaned them the same way the active duty guys did. I'll bet many barrels were ruined by cleaning rod wear. A bore guide to keep the rod from touching is a good idea.
     
  5. dfariswheel

    dfariswheel Member

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    Bore solvents need soak time to work, and you may not be giving it enough.
    One mistake people often make is to put solvent in the bore, run a brush through then wipe it out too soon.
    Give it time to work.

    Options are:
    Buy a more aggressive bore cleaner like Sweet's 7.62.
    These are faster and more aggressive at getting fouling out, but you can't leave them in the bore too long or it may damage it. Sweet's is a max of 30 minutes. There are other brands of stronger solvents.

    Read the label on the Tipton's solvent on how long it can be allowed to soak. If it's safe, just wet the bore thoroughly and let it soak for a few hours.
    Some solvents can be left in indefinitely, so you can let soak over night.
    After soaking, wet a clean patch and run it straight through the bore and out the end.
    Check it for blue copper stains.
    If you see any and the solvent allows it, just let it soak longer and run another patch later. Repeat until you start to get patches with no stains.
    If you use brass cleaning rod tips don't mistake a little staining left by the rod tip.

    Note that "pumping" patches up and down the bore will leave gray or black stains on the patch. This is not fouling, it's metal stains left by the patch rubbing the steel.
    To see how this works, use a cloth to briskly rub a piece of bare aluminum and see the metal stains.

    Instead of a solvent, buy a jar of JB Bore Paste. This is a special super mild non-embedding abrasive developed to deep clean badly fouled barrels.
    Bench rest shooters use JB, so it won't harm the barrel.
    You can combine the JB with Kroil to do an even better job.
    Buy either or both from Brownell's.

    Forget the synthetic bore brush. Buy bronze, these work much better but don't last long so buy several.

    Of you're screwing the bore brush tightly on the rod, what's probably happening is the brush is unscrewing itself within the first half of the barrel, then the brush is rotating and following the rifling instead of the rod rotating.
    Most shooters don't screw the brush on tight just so it can more easily follow the rifling.
    For a brush not to follow the rifling, the barrel would have to be worn almost completely smooth, which just doesn't happen.
    Barrels wear at the throat in front of the chamber, and at the muzzle if the rod is allowed to rub on it not on the actual rifling.

    To protect the barrel from wear, buy a ONE-PIECE stainless steel or carbon fiber rod, and buy a cone-shaped brass muzzle guide to keep the rod centered in the muzzle.
     
  6. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    Sounds as though you need a barrel replacement not a inspection.
    I would guess barrel is pitted, tahts why it wont cleanup
     
  7. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    If you can wait for a month or so, the CMP games is going to be held at the Oklahoma City Gun Club from April 9 to 13. If you can, go to the range and find the CMP trailer. Their armorers will check it out for you. They are as knowledgeable as you can get when it comes to Garands, and free to boot.

    http://odcmp.com/Competitions/CMPGames_OK.htm

    Laphroaig
     
  8. carbine85

    carbine85 Member

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    Besides a good and proper cleaning I would try different ammo. A Garand with a worn and dirty bore is capable of better accuracy.
    Has anyone else shoot it for comparison?
    If you can see defined rifling and a bullet fits tightly into the muzzle it should shoot better.
     
  9. MutinousDoug

    MutinousDoug Member

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    Your description of your barrel does not lead me to believe you have alot going for you there but you should consider that there is more to Garand accuracy than barrel condition.
    I have two Garands; one a DCM gun and the second a CMP one. As received, neither would shoot any better than yours: 10-12" at 100 yds.
    I had the DCM gun glass bedded, front end unitized and kept the 1945 barrel. Following that treatment, it shot 2 MoA and 5000+ rounds later, will still hold the 10 ring of an NRA target although the throat erosion is over 4.
    The Second gun I only replaced the fencepost of a stock with a new manufacture, well fitting stock, legal for the CMP vintage rifle games and it now shoots less than 2 MoA with its 1954 LMR barrel.
    I would not be surprised if it were possible to improve your groups at 100 yds to half what it is now without touching the barrel. Conversely, installing a brand new Criterion barrel without looking into stock, op rod and gas cylinder fit, may only improve your accuracy by the same amount.
    Good luck, your gun can be made to shoot.
     
  10. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    Thanks to everyone for all the info. I will definitely take my rifle down to OKC in April and have the CMP have a look.

    I am also interested in the glass bedding process. I will try to come back to this thread and post my results and find out more about what I need to do to improve accuracy and what worked and what didn't work.

    Thanks again,
    Mark
     
  11. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    Just remember the Garand is a battle rifle, while it can be made to be very acurate dont expect it to be a match rifle.
    Dont even waste time or money on bedding anything until you get the barrel changed.
    Dont take this wrong but most shooters wont notice the difference between a Match conditioned Garand and a standard garand off the rack
    The best thing you can do to increase accuracy on a good condition Garand is feed it good handloads and practice, practice, practice
     
  12. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    I am hoping to be able to shoot some metal silhouettes at the range at 200 and 300 meters. And maybe shoot some coyotes sometimes.

    I will pursue the barrel first. I am concerned that it is not in good shape. i also understand I need some work on marksmanship on the range.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  13. triggerman770

    triggerman770 Member

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    Cleaning

    get the Otis system. If you must use a rod get the muzzle guard that aligns and centers the rod. put the rod thru with no attachment then install the attachment(brush;patch puller) where the rod exits the chamber then pull it through
     
  14. Reloadron
    • Contributing Member

    Reloadron Member

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    For want of a ME (Muzzle Erosion) TE (Throat Erosion) gauge and while far from an accurate means to measure muzzle erosion a bullet will at least give you an idea.

    [​IMG]

    This can also be done with a live round but just a bullet works well. Helps to know where the ojive of the bullet is. You can see the obvious difference between the left and right barrels. If the muzzle swallows your bullet you can pretty much assume severe muzzle erosion. Again this is far from the results of using a good gauge.

    Ron
     
  15. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    That is good info. Thanks for the input. I read a similar post somewhere, but really didn't know what to make of it. Your pictures help a lot explaining what that means. I'll check mine out. Thanks
     
  16. rabid wombat

    rabid wombat Member

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    HI Aggiejet,

    Though not local, I would use one of the following:

    http://www.warbirdscustomguns.com/M1 Garand.htm

    View attachment M1 at 100 yards w HXP 70 on SR1 target 20081003.pdf

    Tim set up an M-1 for me for Garand shoots. Though I never shot competition, the rifle is great. I feel it can shoot a possible, even if I can't

    http://www.dgrguns.com/

    I have read a lot about Dean. He does good work, from what I have read. I would have no qualms about having Dean work on my rifle.

    http://www.nationalmatcharmory.com/

    I would really like to have Eric work on some of my rifles.

    Best,
    Rabid

    p.s. I am guessing you went to A&M, were in the Corp, and a zoomie or squid - when did you graduate?
     
  17. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd check the crown. If it's damaged, therein lies the problem.

    The second thing is cleaning the bore. Get a bore guide so you don't damage the crown.

    Glass bedding only enhances what a gun will do. If the barrel is bad, you're not going to get much improvement.

    As for difficulty in loading the clips, someone could have clamped the lower legs of the receiver in a vise, compressing them too much. You have to get a micrometer to measure their distance and then compare your measurements against that of a Garand that the clips feed easily.
     
  18. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    As far as hard to load enblocs its not bent receiver legs, if it was you couldnt install the trigger group
    Possible broke clip ejector spring or timing issue, 99% of the time its bad enblocs. Whats stamped on the bottom of them?
     
  19. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    Orlando

    I have 6 clips. two marked (LBM) one marked (BR-W 6) and three marked (BR-W 3) although the last group is very hard to read, even under a magnifying glass.

    I have used the first two groups the most, which is not much. The base of the clips are scarred/scratched from just a little use.

    Right now, I just loaded 8 rounds in the first group clip and 8 in the last group. The ones marked BR-W 3 seem to fit into magazine easier and there is a lot less scarring/scratching on the base of the clip.

    Any input into what I should be looking for when buying clips?
     
  20. Orlando

    Orlando Member

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    Probably BLM not LBM, anyways they are all USGI and "should" be OK
    Its hard to diagnose the issues you are having online. If I had the rifle in hand I'm sure it would be faily easy to figure whats going on.
    At this point all I can suggest is send it to a gunsmithwho specializes in Garands, dont waste your time or money on a local gunsmith unless he specializes in them.
    I suggest sending it here http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/
     
  21. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    I am going to a CMP event in Oklahoma on april 9th, hopefully can get a CMP armorer to give me a little guidance. thanks
     
  22. aggiejet

    aggiejet Member

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    Just a follow up and end of action report:

    Took my M1 to the Oklahoma Games, a CMP sponsored match, and a CMP armorer looked at my rifle. The head space was unsafe and the barrel was no good. I bought a new criterion barrel on site for $180 and it was installed the next day by the armorer.

    Will not get a chance to go shoot this weekend, but I am fairly sure this will solve my accuracy problems. I'll report back.

    Special thanks to Laphroig for pointing me in the right direction.

    As a side note, got to watch the GSM match thursday afternoon. Looked like something I might do. My friend who went with me bought a CMP Special M1 that day also. So we might start shooting in those matches. See ya there.
     
  23. Bexar

    Bexar Member

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    The "PASS" precision for a Garand to be accepted into service was a 4 inch group at a hundred yards I believe. Also...cotton patches can wear a muzzle over time and more damage is done to modern sporting arms by taking down and cleaning them than just leaving them alone. How was the timing on the follower...clip...operating guide...stock... bullet guide etc.? The CMP armorers should have checked the timing with a tool they should have had. There are a lot of things that can be done to the Garand as mentioned to bring it into an inch or possibly even better precision and many of the things, especially glass bedding, will work towards that. Simple lubrication in the right place sometimes can help that. Good luck and keep us updated.
     
  24. Bexar

    Bexar Member

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    Also...what serial number range do you have? Early war Garands sometimes had their receivers drilled too far into the receiver and cut the tops off of some of the receiver follower guides. This affected the 7th round stoppage more than anything but your clip insertion issues does fall into that area of question.
     
  25. M1Newbie

    M1Newbie Member

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    Went with aggiejet to the match and bought a high serial number M1. I am unable to get round 7 to feed from the clip. The first 6 feed perfect. Tried 2 different clips and the same result. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks
     
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