Need opinions on steel targets.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by mikhail kalashnikov, Oct 28, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mikhail kalashnikov

    mikhail kalashnikov Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Hello I need the opinions/ advice of my fellow shooters on some steel targets I make. They were designed for use with rim fire and pistol rounds, we've tested them with everything up to .45 auto at 30 yards and they work awesome, zero damage as result. They are constructed of 12560 armor plate steel. ( same steel used in the military's armored vehicles/ tanks.) Simply put, they work great and last a long time. I'm just curious what you guys/ gals think of em. You can check out our website for a bunch of pics and further info. Any and all, good or bad opinions are appreciated, Thanks. www.jumpinjacktarget.com
     
  2. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    19,421
    Location:
    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Looks like fun. I know a lot of people will shoot steel with handguns at ranges closer than 30 yards.

    21 feet sticks in my head as minimum safe distance for traditional plate tracks and poppers.

    Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4
     
  3. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    10,224
    I have a pair made outta AR 500. They walk with lighter guns. Magnums flip them a good distance.
     
  4. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    570
    Question:

    Is there a problem with the target getting turned so the only shot is a profile shot into the side of the plate?

    Seems like if it spun just right there would not be a view of the plate. If you aren't in a situation that you can move side to side, seems like you could end up having to go out and reset the target orientation.

    Might also be able to shoot the feet till the target rotated, I guess.
     
  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    11,906
    Location:
    Alabama
    I had gong targets made and weld quality is a constant problem. Constant pounding from lead bullets bust welds.

    ReducedDSCN7162BustedupGongTarget.jpg
     
  6. madsend81

    madsend81 Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Lakewood, CA
    I've seen those types of targets turn to present a thin profile to shoot at. You have to either shoot at one of the feet to turn it (although that can just cause the foot to dig deeper in the ground) or move to the side, if possible to shoot at it.
     
  7. mikhail kalashnikov

    mikhail kalashnikov Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    We have shot them a ton and we haven't had that happen, which is kinda surprising, it seems like they would, but it's never happened to us. My brother and I ususlly set up two of em and and race em past a line we paint on the range ground, pretty fun stuff.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
  8. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,297
    I've shot lots of steel over the years. I had a pretty good set that was made by Birchwood Casey a good time ago. They were rated for .22 only but I've shot them with a .223 and a .44 mag and I never managed to put a hole all the way through one. I put some serious dents in them though. I had them set up in a safe place BTW and I didn't do anything stupid like shoot them from 20 feet away with a .44 mag. I even shot them one time with a 7.62 x 39 but that put a mighty serious dent in the steel. It didn't go through though. Luckily it was a small hole type of dent and not spread out over the whole target.

    I've seen lots of splatter from .22 bullets on them. I would have a target setup just beside the steel with a Shoot N See target on it. I've seen lots of times where there was a line made across that Shoot N See where splatter had hit it just right and went across the target like it was drawing a line. For that to happen as often as it did there had to be a lot of splatter going on.

    I always tilted the target forward a little so that the bottom target on my set that had a top and a bottom target would tilt forward at the top a little. That always pushed the lead down for the most part. I had some spinners too and I'd lean them out but they wouldn't stay leaning the way I wanted as well.

    The hardest part of using steel is that it doesn't take long to knock the paint off the target and those paper stickers last about 10 minutes before they're gone. I used orange paint on mine or white sometimes. Those colors stood out against the background of the side of the hill behind the targets better than other colors I tried.

    My biggest problem was with the frame that held the targets. They take a beating and they break eventually. But I could usually find a way to get them stuck back together. What eventually ended the targets was when the neck of the target itself broke from being bent too many times. I would shoot until I bent them backwards then turn the target around and shoot until I bent it back the other way. Eventually all my targets broke because of that.

    These are the things I think are important in targets from my experience. Some hold up way better than others. The quality of the steel means a whole lot. I guess the best ones I saw were made by my friend who used very hard steel with chains to hold it and grade bolts to fasten the chains to the targets. The bolts had to be replace fairly often but we never did any damage to the steel of the target. It would give a lot when it was shot because of being mounted with chains. As long as the chains were put on just right the target always leaned the right way too. I don't remember the steel that my friend used but it wasn't cheap, I know that much. We shot that with everything we owned up to a 30.06. I always liked to keep my distance from that thing when I shot it with something powerful. I've seen guys shoot steel from about 10 feel with .45's. I stepped around the side of the building at the range when they started that. Then they laughed at me for setting the target back to 25 yards. They didn't laugh for long though. I was shooting my Sig P220 and it can hit a target at that distance all day if I do my part. Then the guy who did the most laughing said that it didn't do any good to practice at that distance because most shootings took place inside 12 feet. Yeah they do but I can sure hit those bad guys if I practice enough to hit steel at longer distances. I can see practicing double taps at shorter distances but I don't do it with steel.

    I like the looks of your targets. They seem to address most of the problems I had. My only concern would be with the neck of the steel. After long term shooting I'd say they are going to bend pretty bad and it might be hard to get them bent back. I like the spinner targets because you can turn them around and bend them back when the neck starts to go. I'm not familiar with that steel though. Could be it will hold up a very long time before it ever bends.
     
  9. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2010
    Messages:
    4,042
    Location:
    Georgia, Dixie
    From your site:

    May want to give some thought to changing that statement. A dented plate becomes a hazard.

    You guys did a pretty good job on the website. Good luck.
     
  10. HexHead

    HexHead Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,442
    Location:
    TN
    How does the steel you're using compare to AR500?
     
  11. oldgold

    oldgold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    438
    Location:
    ohio
    MtnCreek Has a valid point. Even a small crater can turn a bullet right back at you. A friend of mine wears a scar in the middle of his forehead from a .45 colt. He was standing in back of and slightly to the side of the shooter.

    I'd advise not shooting at cratered steel.
     
  12. SuedePflow

    SuedePflow Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2013
    Messages:
    397
    Location:
    Southwest MI
    At close proximity, I'd have to agree. At 100+ yards, craters don't seen to matter.

    I bought some large steel targets at a gun show a year ago. The largest one is 1" thick. I ASSumed they were hardened steel (like AR500), but found that not to be the case the first time we shot at them. Needless to say, it's now cratered up badly, and if we shoot pistol rounds at it within 30 feet, there's a solid 50% chance that lead will come back at us. Being my first and only experience with a cratered target, I was quite surprised at how dangerous it really is.

    Here's two pieces of lead that I recovered. Both of these came back and hit us shooters. The larger one weighs in at 77gr and hit me in my side. The smaller one weighs 59gr and hit my dad in the back. That will be the last time we lob pistol rounds at a cratered target.

    20131030_185300_zps4a9385bf.jpg

    20130908_195228_zps038669b8.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  13. The_Next_Generation

    The_Next_Generation Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2011
    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    USA
    I have a solution to the "profile" problem with these targets (the steel being rotated such that only the profile of the upright disk is visible to the shooter).

    Couldn't you just weld a half-circle onto the front and rear faces of each disk? that way it wouldn't matter which way the steel is oriented.

    Would this be the same as cratering the target? I would think that the 90deg angle inbetween the face and semicircle would be a lot less effective at slinging lead back than a nice hemispherical crater.

    Better yet, why not just make four half-circles and weld them together at the top and the bottom. This wouldn't be as strong as my other idea as the welds are smaller and the impact would have more mechanical advantage against the weld, but maybe if you could make them strong enough it would work. Of course you could just weld along all of the seams, but that's a lot of work ;)

    Here is a quick rendering I did with Autodesk:

    targetJackDisk_zpsd86560bb.jpg

    ^^ doing it this way actually ensures that the shooter always sees a perfect circle, instead of an ellipse as would be the case if you simply welded half-circles onto the front and back of the current targets.
     
  14. mikhail kalashnikov

    mikhail kalashnikov Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    AR 500 is some pretty good steel, the thing is that AR stands for abrasion resistant, AR type steel was designed, to my knowledge, for use where things were constantly rubbing or moving against it. ( concrete truck shoot comes to mind.) The steel we use was specifically designed to be shot, it is the same steel that protects our troops in combat. I know our steel rates higher on the hardness scale ( can't recall the name of the scale, there are several.) They are both good steels, some time ago I tested ours VS an AR500 or 450 and ours had just a little less wear and didn't take dent's so easy. All in all the AR500 and the 12560 we use are comparable, but I do believe the 12560 takes the day, thats why we chose it. I almost had to use the AR due to the 12560 being so hard to source.
     
  15. 27hand

    27hand Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    SW Pa.
    Armor

    May I ask what welding process and/ or filler wire you use to make these?

    I believe AR (abrasion resistant) plate can be had in AR550 and even AR600 IIRC., however the additional hardness reaction to dimpling (impact) is so miniscule that the cost difference doesn't justify using it.

    What is the Brinnell hardness range of the armor plate you use?

    I like steel but try to ensure a large portion of spatter is directed downward on my home made AR500 targets.
     
  16. thefish

    thefish Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    559
    Location:
    Colorado
    I see the picture of jumping jacks "ready to weld".
    I wonder if you could design a locking mechanism so they could be transported in 2 pieces and assembled at the range.
     
  17. doubleh

    doubleh Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,834
    Location:
    NM-south of I-40
    I shoot home made steel swinging targets. Handgun and lead bullets only and they are made from 1/2" mild steel plate. No pitting at all but of course they won't stand up to jacketed rounds. The arms and pivots are welded. No breakage either. A competent welder makes welds that are stronger than the parent metal.
     
  18. 27hand

    27hand Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    SW Pa.
    steel

    Here are a few targets I bought or fabricated. Some I took to group shoots we had and there are multiple thousands of hits on the swinger plates and spring plates.

    At one shoot, a guy asked if he could use his pistol cal carbine on the mild steel. I said OK and didn't notice for a while how much damage was being done to the schedule 40 2" pipe supports. I told him not to shoot with the carbine any more.

    100_0325-1.jpg

    I gave away those 1/2" thick swinger target faces and 2 of the spring plates.

    I bought AR500 plates to reface the spring plates. I will make a stand to mount the spring loaded Colt Speed Plates I got from MGM Targets. I'll mount them as hanging to deflect bullet frags down.
    I have a little work to do to finish a couple of these.
    scan0001-2_zps105342c5.jpg
    I'll use these from Wideners. AR500.

    ResizedImage_1366673172462_zpsb7e3c4de.jpg

    dcp_4943.jpg

    AR500 gong mounted with chains and shepherds hooks. I think I'll change to straps.

    0522021935.jpg
     
  19. kendak

    kendak Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    141
    Location:
    Miss.
    I use 2" thick T1 plate & cut out PD, chickens & half size hogs ..25yds. to 1000yds. use every cal. I got including .460 W. Mag. ...they will last for many years no harm done..
     
  20. mikhail kalashnikov

    mikhail kalashnikov Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    We use mig to weld our targets, I can't quote the number but the wire is rated for 80,000 lb and as far as the brinnell scale goes I'll have to dig out my paperwork from the research prior to starting construction. I want to say 550-600 (don't quote me on this though.) I'll try to find the paperwork. I do know it's harder than AR 500, that was one of our deciding points.
     
  21. mikhail kalashnikov

    mikhail kalashnikov Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Now thats a target. Do you have any problems with the bullets bouncing back? with it being so heavy?
     
  22. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,297
    The supports on my swinging targets didn't break at the welds. They broke in the corners usually. But I shot a heck of a lot of lead at them before they broke.
     
  23. 27hand

    27hand Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    SW Pa.
    steel

    mikhail,

    You make a nice target.

    Here is a list of steel and the approximate Brinnel hardness. I have welded bulldozer teeth shanks onto heavy equipment buckets and cannot remember what rod they gave me to use. i was thinking it was something on the order of E10018 or E12018 meaning the rod is listed as 100,000 or 120,000 PSI tensile strength. I'll have to verify the 120K rod.

    Here's a link of steel types.
    http://www.arntzentargets.com/index.htm


    Here's a link for armor plate
    http://www.cuttingedgesupply.com/Products/target-armor


    These links are for general steel target knowledge that I've found out very few people know.

    Here's a bit of info for welding AR plate.


    Welding
    Low-hydrogen-producing electrodes must be used in welding. Where maximum strength of joining plates is not important, rod type AWS E7016, 15, or 18 should be used. If possible, 7018 and 8018 electrodes should be used with the 500 BHN steel. If the weld is to be subjected to wear, it may be capped with a hard facing electrode having a low hydrogen type coating. When higher weld strengths are required, electrodes of the AWS E90, E100 or E120 low hydrogen series should be used, depending on the strength levels required.

    Request a quote for Tensalloy Blue AR500 steel.


    MGM target website. I own a couple of these.

    "We manufacture a full line of steel targets for competition, Law Enforcement, and Military firearms training. We would be honored if you would consider us the next time you need steel. Our products are competitively priced, and you can't buy higher quality anywhere. Please call us at 888-767-737 or send us an email [email protected]

    Back to the top
    What are your targets made of?

    All our targets are made of 500 brinell steel, which is the same hardness as Armor Plate. AR 500 is comparable to roughly a 52 on the Rockwell C scale, which is also about the same hardness as a good knife blade. While 'AR-500' steel is a common industry term, its manufacturing processes vary resulting in varied hardnesses, often as low as 465. MGM Targets has considered this and to maintain more consistent material and the highest standard of performance from our products, we require the hardness of the AR-500 steel we use be not less than 495.
    In addition to the chemical composition of the steel, a 'quench and temper' process at the steel mill further enhances the steel hardness and toughness. In comparison, your car is made of mild steel, about 135 Brinell, and T-1, (the old steel for targets) is about a 235 hardness. AR500 can withstand literally thousands of rounds from reasonable distances without significant damage.



    "AR 500" is a steel mill designation, but, not all AR 500 actually has a Brinell hardness of 500. Often it will be as low as 495. MGM has had a standing internal requirement that no steel would be used for our targets unless it was a 495 BHN (Brinell Hardness Number), or higher. MGM's acceptable tolerance measurements on steel is the tightest in the industry and we require our steel suppliers to contract and supply to this tolerance."

    There's a ****pot full of info if you google it.

    Bullets that strike a flat surface will explode off the face in roughly a 20 degree angle. For this reason, anyone who shoots steel should wear eye protection as well as a ball cap with a front facing bill. Spatter coming off a steel face will have some material falling down and back to the shooter. Lead or jacket pieces WILL get between your glasses and your eye. Even close fitting glasses are not foolproof. A ballcap will will stop almost all of it.

    I shoot steel as close as 7 yds and fragments DO come back.
    I shoot rifles at steel from as close as 50 yds. Bullet frags DO come back.
    It's all in what your individual risk threshold is. The manufacturers instruct to not shoot their products at various ranges. This is for liability reasons.

    Everyone has an opinion on this and some will almost try to force their logic/ reasoning on others, yet it still comes down to individual risk assessment and choice.

    I have had minor cuts from steel jacket or lead frags. I've seen some people need stitches to close up a gash from ricochet out of a berm with rocks in it.

    You can all choose to shoot at whatever distance you feel comfortable with.

    Cratered steel is flat out DANGEROUS to shoot at.
    People shoot at all kinds of targets I consider dangerous from a ricochet aspect.

    To each his own.

    mikhail, Good luck with marketing the targets. I suppose I would do more research on proper welding techniques for hard steel.
    To everyone else, I hope at least a bit of this info is instructional. If something I posted is not factual, please let me know and I'll edit that stuff out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  24. 27hand

    27hand Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    SW Pa.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
  25. mikhail kalashnikov

    mikhail kalashnikov Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Thank you for the resources, I may have possibly visited one of them during my research, I too have welded new teeth a dozer bucket, or a track loader rather in my case as well as build from scratch and rebuild multiple other buckets. I have been welding and fabricating for a little over 15 years, The reason I chose the wire I use is that it is a good middle ground, we tested several different ones and the one we use has never cracked or failed in our testing, my first thought was to use the strongest wire I could get, but the price goes way up and the wire is much harder to find without being ordered. So we picked the middle ground which has worked well and presents no evident problems. Oh yea as of last week we have got a contract with both a local police department and Sheriff department, this is great because we will be expanding into other types of targets as well.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice