Need small handgun for defense

[Onward Allusion]

Remo223
I disagree with the comments about 38 snubs being too much recoil. There's always cowboy loads. Wadcutters are pretty mild loads too. I have lots and lots of guns and some of them are pretty darn expensive. But you know what I carry most?

A 45 year old charter arms undercover I bought for under a hundred bucks. I load it with seller and bellot wadcutters. And I prefer the original old fashioned plain tiny wood grips. HOwever, I had to do some smithing on that little gun to make it work. A newbie probably should not buy a used charter arms unless its only a couple years old.

.38 Special Cowboy loads have about half as much energy than a strong .32 S&W Long cartridge AND a strong .32 S&W Long load has almost the same energy as a target/range round of .38 Special. For a complete newbie, 6 shots is better than 5 and recoil from a 32 is more manageable than the 38's.

BTW, wood grips on a Charter Arms .38 Undercover sting even with range loads. I have one and I had to swap the wood grips out to a set of Pachmayr grips because after a few cylinders, it became uncomfortable to shoot.

 

[omu]

From my experience...

I'm not sure I can keep you in the $300 range, but I will say do NOT buy an LCP without finding one to shoot somewhere. I bought one as an ultra conceal gun for myself. (I'm a gal, 35, and had shot a variety of guns and needed something smaller than my 9mm.) I carried it for about a year, but honestly it was almost TOO small. I felt like it was hard to deal with. Not to mention, when I actually took it to the range to shoot it truly WAS a kicky little bastard. My hand would hurt the next day from the recoil if I shot too much with it.

I ended up trading my LCP in on a Sig Sauer 238, which is a .380. It's small, it's easy to conceal, and I absolutely have had ZERO problems with it since I bought it. I ordered mine in two tone, with night sights, and I love it. I can shoot 100+ rounds at a time and my hand doesn't hurt. I'm accurate with it. I can also hide it no problem in a purse, or wear it easily under fairly fitted clothing in my pancake holster. The only problem is it's above your price range - but honestly I think you get what you pay for. If you want a small auto - this is a NICE gun.

Good luck!!!

 

[Zerodefect]

Seek professional training first. That'll give you a better idea what works for you. I know ya'll in the mediacal field get tons f time off.

http://www.tdiohio.com/
These guys are in a quite country town. And have plenty of pistols to loan out for thier classes.

You'll also need a proper holster for inside your purse to keep your weapon safe. Don't over look IWB holsters or ankle holsters.

Your budget is SOL.
But I recommend:
Kahr p9, k9, mk9, or p380
STI RS 9mm
Dan Wesson Gaurdian 9mm
S&W J-frame

 

[pmeisel]

Marie, a 38 revolver from Charter Arms, Rossi, or Taurus may suit you.

 

[donster]

My wife carries a 4 inch GP100 in her purse. She has too much trouble with a slide and is recoil sensitive. She finds the heavy GP100 easier to shoot with .357s than a j frame with lighter .38s. You can get purses made for guns that will let you hold something bigger than a pocket pistol, and you may find you shoot the larger guns better, too.

As others have said, seek professional training. A good professional should have at least a couple types of guns for you to try.

 

[Searcher4851]

I'd have to go a long with some of the previous posters. Try out as many guns as you can get access to. (friends, rentals at the range, etc.) and you will be able to find out what feels best for YOU. (and the practice you get while you're trying them out is always a plus. One can never practice enough)

 

[NMGonzo]

Keltec pf9

very simple

I have one and the snappy recoil could be distracting for a novice. Takes some getting used to, in my opinion, and I believe that is not a beginner's handgun.

I was thinking on something more in the lines of a .38 special with a light trigger for a lady.

 

[Pilgram]

Don't buy a gun first, buy training, then select the gun that works best for you.

I recommend FrontSight in Nevada. It was WAY better than the firearms training I received as a cop. You'll fire about 800 rounds in 4 days and learn to fire two shots from your concealment garb in about 1 1/2 seconds. About 1/3d of their students are women and they cover everything from weapon selection, to legal responsibility, to rudimentary tactics (e.g., you will clear a house in one exercise, and likely shoot your "spouse" in the process). You'll see every gun and gun configuration known to man among the 400-600 people who attend each weekend. There are 2 and 4 day classes.

You can buy Front Sight certificates on eBay for a fraction of the retail price. There will be attempts to get you to buy a lifetime membership, but those are easily ignored.

I forund that it's actually a lot of fun, too, to spend 4-5 days in the Nevada desert with people from all walks of life. If you hate it, you can spend the time gambling in Vegas for a mini-vacation.

I've been back twice for pistol training and am going back for the rifle course.

 

[CZguy]

Don't buy a gun first, buy training, then select the gun that works best for you.

Excellent advice. You won't know what works for you until you have gained some experience. Look at it this way. If you have decided to arm yourself, that would be like deciding to learn how to play golf, or any other sport, and going out and playing a couple of games and then thinking that you are prepared. You won't start out being very good at it, until you parctice.....a lot. And you certainly won't know what clubs or equipment work for you.

I don't want to discourage the OP, but I do want to give a realistic idea of what she is getting into. If that doesn't appeal to you, a consideration would be a non lethal deterrent.

 

[Remo223]

.38 Special Cowboy loads have about half as much energy than a strong .32 S&W Long cartridge AND a strong .32 S&W Long load has almost the same energy as a target/range round of .38 Special. For a complete newbie, 6 shots is better than 5 and recoil from a 32 is more manageable than the 38's.

BTW, wood grips on a Charter Arms .38 Undercover sting even with range loads. I have one and I had to swap the wood grips out to a set of Pachmayr grips because after a few cylinders, it became uncomfortable to shoot.

HUH?

no, no, no. There's no sting in wad cutters. None whatsoever. 32S&W long is about 100 ft-lb muzzle energy. 38special is twice that. Not that muzzle energy means diddly. It's common knowledge 45ACP is approaching the ultimate in self defense stopping power yet muzzle energy for 45ACP 230gr hardball is actually less than 9mm+P.

If you really believe small fast bullets are superior, you should go with a 22 magnum revolver. 300 ft-lb muzzle energy.

 

[Shadow 7D]

TRAINING
you can have all the guns and gizmos in the world and still not know what to do....

 

[shootingthebreeze]

First, go to a good gun dealer and look at a variety of firearms. It has to fit comfortably each person is different.
For example I have settled for the Kar P380 which I will get soon after an exhaustive search. You might consider paying a little bit more.
Second, level of experience at the range.
Third, in MI firearms are not allowed in hospital settings. I have a CPL and there are restrictions as to where one can carry a firearm.

Look at a variety of firearms first this might take some time.

 

[SteveP55419]

Bad Publicity

You say your clinic has been receiving lots of bad publicity. Could you explain what has been going on in the clinic that would generate bad publicity? One poster suggested that you consider changing jobs and I would second that if in fact bad things have been going on in your clinic. And I think we all know what the subject is here.

Like another poster said, a gun is not a majic amulet. Its a tool that might, just might, get you out of an incredibly violent encounter. Do a little thinking, get a job with a better employer and forget this whole gun thing.

 

[zebco]

Do a little thinking, get a job with a better employer

I can probably agree with this.

forget this whole gun thing.

Cannot agree with that. I personally would never encourage someone NOT to get a gun. The OP may be someone who has never thought about shooting sports, the 2A, etc. Isn't a purpose of this forum to encourage gun ownership/2A support? Regardless of the original reason for getting involved with it?

Now back on topic, I would go with others' advice of trying several out and see what works/feels best. And I'll echo what some others have said about people always recommending small revolvers for women. Not always the best choice.

 

[dirtykid]

save your pennies,, get a S&W air-weight hammerless,, it's worth the price difference,, my wife LOVES hers and much prefer's it over her Glock-27

 

[Onward Allusion]

Remo223
HUH?

no, no, no. There's no sting in wad cutters. None whatsoever. 32S&W long is about 100 ft-lb muzzle energy. 38special is twice that. Not that muzzle energy means diddly. It's common knowledge 45ACP is approaching the ultimate in self defense stopping power yet muzzle energy for 45ACP 230gr hardball is actually less than 9mm+P.

If you really believe small fast bullets are superior, you should go with a 22 magnum revolver. 300 ft-lb muzzle energy.

Not going to debate you on your felt recoil because it is entirely subjective. What I do know is that many new shooters female and male are adverse to recoil.

I can't count the number of times I've gone into a gun shop and overhear the counter person tell a woman who has never shot a gun that .38 Special Snub is best for protection. What they don't tell them about is the muzzle flip and snappy recoil. This is why I don't recommend anyone buy a gun without first shooting something similar either at a rental range or from a friend/family member. Get something that is uncomfortable to shoot, and the new shooter will not practice with it. If there's no practice, it's questionable as a SD weapon.

I like odd-ball and under appreciated calibers. I think the .32 S&W Long has a place with new shooters who want something more than a 22LR. I've thrown some numbers together courtesy of Handloads.com's online calculator. It clearly shows that the 32S&W L is not as anemic as a lot of people think. I also like that snub revolvers chambered in this cartridge can hold 6 rounds rather than 5.

As for the 22 Mag, the numbers are from rifle length barrels. From a short barrel the bullet hovers around 100 ft lb give or take.

 

[Nushif]

Call me paranoid, but dare I say that the OP had said something along the lines of "I'm uncomfortable in a high risk clinic working without security, what should I do" she might have received a warmer welcome.

When I read the first replies about someone (especially an oh so vulnerable woman) being dissuaded from arming themselves I was a bit surprised.

So I do maintain: Get some some training, check the rules, buy a gun in any case. Even if you can't carry it. Welcome to gun ownership.

 

[stanmo]

My GF started with a LCP, although a fine choice the recoil was more than she was comfortable with. I bought a stainless Beretta 21A .22 cuz it was a good deal. She tried it at the range and fell in love with it, so it's hers now and sold the LCP.
A face full of Stingers should be cause for someone to rethink an attack.

 

[makarovnik]

P3AT or similar, Kahr micro nine, Beretta Bobcat in .25acp.

 

[cz75bcrazy]

theres a lot of them for under 300 you could get a cz 52, cz 82, hi point (any of them), there are some wheel guns new for under that price to.

 

[Skinsanity]

OK Marie....So this wasnt your friendliest welcome to a gun forum. Unlike others, I will assume you have the knowledge of using a gun safely and proficiently. If you don't, please take the advice from some of the others and find someone who can familiarize yourself with them before looking into buying one. This can be either formal training or informal, but make sure its with someone who knows their stuff, many gun stores will have information on affordable concealed weapon classes in your area.

As for the weapon itself, where I understand the need for concealment in your situation, dont get something based solely on that. Get a gun that will do what is intended and figure out how you are going to carry it, then dress accordingly. As far as your purse, most no-gooders will not wait for you to dig your pistol from your purse. Get a purse designed for this that will allow ready access in a hurry if needed.

Where the cartridge is concerned, you need to figure out what your recoil threshold is..my fiance is 5'4" tall and weighs 135 , and has no problem shooting a colt commander in .45acp, and I have talked to at least one large man who said a 9mm kicked too hard..Recoil is NOT a standard thing, some people can handle more or less than others. The best thing to do is test fire a few different models and different calibers and get the largest caliber you are comfortable with shooting. A .380 will do the job if need be, but if you can handle a 9mm, .40, or .45, get on of those. The point of armed engagement is to neutralize whatver is threatening you in as short of time as possible. a revolver should not be ruled out either as they are inherantly more reliable and simpler to operate, but your caliber choices are more limited.

Do not let the gun store proprieter tell you what you need. Stay away from any Jennings, bryco, davis or raven names, these pistols are of low quality and will not be reliable.

Practice Practice Practice...Shoot it and clean it as often as time and budget will allow. Dont get the gun and let it sink to the bottom of your purse forgotten until the moment you need it. Again, the name of the game is instant incapacitation of the threat, and the more you practice, the better the chance of you getting rounds on the target before something bad happens.

Its unfortunate that we live in a world where we require firearms for self defense, but I thank god we live in a country that allows us to do so, for the forseeable future at least.

Good luck and I hope that helped some...

 

[CZguy]

One poster suggested that you consider changing jobs and I would second that if in fact bad things have been going on in your clinic. And I think we all know what the subject is here.

Just for those of us who don't know what the subject is...........could you elaborate.

 

[SteveP55419]

She works in a place where they do abortions:

'I work at a womens' medical clinic that has been receiving lots of bad publicity and threats from the local extremist lunatics'.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Again, having a firearm at a clinic may not be allowed in Marie's state. Check the CPL requirements.

As a nurse, days go by as no carry days for me. Cannot carry in a hospital setting in MI.

Secondly, what are the employer's rules relating to firearms at the work place even if firearms were allowed in the clinic. Most employers have a zero tolerance for firearms in the work place.

 

[Manco]

* .38 Special snub revolvers are NOT good for the newbie shooter regardless of how much the local gun store clerk recommends it as a "women's gun". Recoil is uncomfortable even for me who shoots a few hundred rounds of 9mm & 40 S&W every week. It's not the caliber that is bad, it is the light weight of the gun that generates the felt recoil.

You make a good case for .32 caliber revolvers, but how do you feel about heavier steel-framed .38 Special (actually .357 Magnum) snubbies such as the S&W Model 640 or Ruger SP101? Those typically weigh about 23-25 oz as opposed to the ubiquitous 15 oz Model 642 Airweight (and they would be more comparable to .32 revolvers in this regard). I wouldn't recommend shooting .357 Magnum loads out of these, but .38 Special should be significantly more manageable than in the Airweights.

.38 Special Cowboy loads have about half as much energy than a strong .32 S&W Long cartridge

.38 Special Cowboy loads are typically 158 grain LRN bullets moving at or close to 800 fps, which gives them about 224 ft-lb of energy. I'd say that it would be a challenge to get 224 ft-lb, let alone 448 ft-lb, out of a .32 S&W Long round.... The Cowboy loads that you're talking about must be really weak and not worthy of consideration for defensive purposes. Sure, you can pick and choose guns and ammo to make a point, but so can everybody else.

AND a strong .32 S&W Long load has almost the same energy as a target/range round of .38 Special.

.32 S&W Long can potentially approach the energy of light target/range .38 Special, but the latter will still have greater momentum. I do think that .32 S&W Long can get sufficient penetration to be considered effective regardless, but then again so can .22 LR with the right loads. The question is which trade-off between bullet diameter, recoil, and capacity one finds to be optimum in a small-frame revolver: .357"/5 rounds, .312"/6 rounds, or .223"/8 rounds.

As for the 22 Mag, the numbers are from rifle length barrels. From a short barrel the bullet hovers around 100 ft lb give or take.

Along the same lines, as for the S&B .32 S&W Long load that you've referenced, that was out of a 6" test barrel--check it out:

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/pistol-and-revolver-detail.php?ammunition=9&product=65

Out of a snubby or even a 3" barrel, it could lose a couple hundred fps and quite a bit of its energy and momentum.