Negligent Discharge at Home

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But because I racked before dropping the mag, there was another loaded round in the chamber that went boom.
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NDs with autos seem to fall into two categories. One is the brain leaks out the ears and you pull the trigger on a chamber that you know is loaded. The second, and I think, from reading around here, the most common, is racking the slide before dropping the mag.

Just glad you're in one piece.
 
Got home from coyote hunting last Sunday. Had my Rem 700 .223. As always, I check before putting it away. Live round jumps out. I had been carrying it cased in my car, and I'd have bet any amount of money it was cleared.

When I was a kid on the farm, I was dry firing a .22 lever action in my room. Popped it off maybe 3-4 times, then started doing the "Rifleman" quick rack of the action.

About the 2nd or 3rd cycle, a live round jumped out.:what: The round had hung up in the tube feed.

Only The Merciful God of Flaming Idiots saved me that time from an a$$ whipping from mom and dad.

The thing about never dropping the hammer on anything that doesn't have a snap-cap sounds better all the time
 
1st off I'm glad everyone is ok.

I feel completely terrible and sick to my stomach.
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You should... I hope you never forget that feeling as it will help it from
happening again.

Don't let it scare you off from guns but allow it to cement a set of rules
that you will follow for the rest of your days. Gun ownership is not a hobby
but a way of life.

If I am out somewhere I allow no more than 2 drinks with a meal in one
evening if I have my CCW . I know that is low balling it but I would rather
error on the side of caution then do the "I know better than that"
chant. I also leave my CCW loaded at all times with the hammer down (it also
has a decock if I find myself needing to drop the hammer) and only empty it
when at the range.

All that being said I believe strongly that it will not happen to everyone and I
also believe it was a ND and not a AD. I am indeed glad you posted as this
very post may prevent it from happing to someone else.

My quote is there for a reason..... its true.
 
I'm glad that you and the family are okay, but don't forget the fear that you're feeling, it may save you from a next time.

Jubei
 
My wife and I attended a Christmas party tonight and I was carrying as usual, a Para LTC 1911 in an IWB holster. Over the course of about 3.5 hours I had ~5 drinks, 4 beers and a mixed drink to be exact.
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Glad to hear everyone's OK, but what are you doing have 5 drinks while CCW'ing? No matter how high your tolerance is, that much booze will have some effect on your judgement and reflexes. What would have happened if you had to use your weapon to defend yourself and the cops found alchohol in your system?
 
I once shot out a window with a .357 from the second story of my home, aiming an "unloaded" gun at a piece of paper on the ground on the prairie behind the house. Holy Crap! My ex-wife came running upstairs to see if I had shot myself on purpose, but I couldn't hear what she had to say for a little while. No substance abuse involved, just my normal brain cells at work.
 
DK, glad you and your loved ones are safe; and thanks for sharing the story. It's a good reminder to us all.

My only ND happened at the range, with muzzle pointed down range, so no harm done. Since it was at the range, nobody around me knew it was unintentional! Nevertheless, quite the adrenaline rush. I have, on the other hand, put a motorcycle down more than once.

NDs can and do happen. That's why there are FOUR rules!
 
Mine was an AD and it happened in the house with a .30-06 :what:

I bought a filthy M1 Garand at an estate sale for a bargain price and spent hours cleaning it up. I got it clean, dry fired it, then wanted to see if it would chamber a round. It slam-fired when I released the operating rod. My bad.

The bullet (ball ammo) went through a wall, a hardwood floor, subfloor, and floor joist, then put a divot in the concrete basement wall. I'm not sure if my hearing ever fully recovered.
 
If only others would truly "LEARN" from this lesson, my fear is...

Too many people assume, it'll never happen to me. This is exactly the reason I NEVER drink, period! It, to me, is just not worth it. Not even a sip. I want all of my faculties to be at 100% for the eventuality that they need be called upon to defend me and my family.

I am not criticizing; I have place to do that, but as my CCW and my Tactical Shooting instructors told me, "If you're choosing to carry, then you're choosing to never drink again. The alternative is the guns are unloaded BEFORE drinking, and remain locked away until the alcohol is 100% voided".

I took the lesson to heart and learned from my instructors. My parting thought, secured, gated communities can protect us from the outsiders, but who will protect us from ourselves?

Glad it all worked out right, no injuries, no death--just some battered humility and eardrums.

Edited to add:

Some here have said, it was accidental discharge, not negligent. I submit that is was negligent, not accidental. Assume for one minute that someone had been killed. No alcohol=accidental death. Alcohol=negligent homicide. That is what I have witnessed, but perhaps it is only under Michigan law.

But for my part, the prosecution would be the mild and tolerable part; losing my wife or daughter would destroy me, especially if it were my fault. Better to assume it to have been negligent and allow that thought to burn in, in the hopes of it never happening again than to down-play it.

Doc2005
 
dk-corriveau said:
Topid,

Please don't get me worng, I am not normally lax abou gun handling. That being said, it still happened to me and it can happen to you or anyone else on the list. I hope it doesn't, but it could.
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Uhm. DK:

Yeah, it's possible it could happen... but so is the possibility of life on Mars.

You violated all two big rules of safe gun handling... simultaneously, after drinking. I personally am reluctant to drink while armed and on those rare occasions, I have a one drink limit while armed - and am hyper cautious after that. Yeah, some will argue that's one too many, however it works for me. Five drinks while armed? I'd just as soon if you were with me that you gave the gun (in the holster!) to me long before you tipped the third one.

You know what you "done" wrong and the lesson will probably serve you well for the rest of your life - and serves us in the same way.

I've not had an AD or ND. I also leave the gun in the holster and handle a holstered gun (IWB, typically), not a loaded gun. I'm scrupulous about keeping my finger off the trigger. And if I pull a trigger on an unloaded gun, I literally check twice - by sight and often by feel - that the mag is out, chamber empty, gun unloaded - before pulling that trigger (while aiming in a safe direction). If I'm very tired, I won't handle a loaded gun. I'll leave it for another time if at all possible.

Next time you come home after drinking, do yourself a favor and put the holstered gun away and leave the unloading for morning.

If it makes you feel better to claim victim status by saying it could happen to us, that's fine. But if you follow the rules and are ALWAYS careful in your gun handling, it won't happen (again for you).

John
 
When unloading always look AND feel!

Glad you are O.K. Learn from this incident and the other NDs here. It is my impression of recent NDs here that people are not using their nose hooks effectively and are not feeling up that chamber.

NDs happen mostly when people are fiddling with their weapons. Don't handle weapons when there is no need; do not unload weapons when there is no need.

Like driving on the highway, the longer you load and unload, the higher your chances for an ND.
 
Good advice in your post, Templar223, both about restricting alcohol consumption and handling a holstered gun. But from DK's tone, I don't think he ws claiming "victim status." To the contrary: he has very clearly accepted responsibility for his own bad judgment. I appreciate his humility, and the spirit with which he offered his story: so that others can learn from his error.

Someone once said: "Good judgment comes from experience. And experience? Well, that comes from poor judgment."

Best thing here is that everyone is safe.
 
I know I'm not perfect, but I haven't had an AD/ND and hope that my diligence will allow me to continue the streak.

Whenever I'm unloading (or putting on my rig for the day), I make sure that I lock myself in the bedroom alone. If someone knocks or the phone rings... tough, cuz they'll be waiting. Another little tip that I would offer to add to your unloading routine is to cycle the slide numerous times before locking it open and visually checking the chamber. In your scenario, you would've seen multiple rounds eject and realized you forgot to remove the mag.

Thank you for posting and I'm glad no one was hurt. Although this was an ND, take the constructive comments posted to heart and learn from your mistakes. As you were man enough to be this honest, I have no doubt you'll be fine...
 
My wife has watched me pull my carry weapon out of it's holster, drop the mag, rack the slide and then very cautiously look UP the mag well, down the barrrel and then up the mag well and then down the barrel. No.....that wasn't a hiccup on the keyboard. She has asked me several times why the compulsive behavior?

But compulsive or not, that is my SOP EVERYTIME I unload. This is due to doing the fact that I did the same thing that dk did, but I was driving my pickup down the road at the same time as I was unloading the .25 auto I was carrying at that time. If it had not been for a very muscular GMC steering wheel, I would have a very obvious scar on my left thigh. The bullet actually lodged in the outer rim of the steering wheel after it glanced off of the spoke. I dug that bullet out of the wheel and carried it in my pocket with my change for years and years.......just as a reminder of what a serious brain fart can cause.

I will not slam you for the alcohol......enough others have already done that. And Iam very glad you and your family were not hurt.
 
My son and I shoot IPSC and having shot for years has sealed in some important safe gun handlling practices. First, there is a designated safe area in our house that is in a closet with a conrete wall...it is the only place where a firearm and ammo is allowed to be handled. Cleariing a weapon always includes "unload and show clear"...get into the habit of always always looking into that the chamber and seeing clear. Only then can you be confident of "slide forward, hammer down". In addition, except for the safe area, no ammo is allow in the same room as the firearms, ever. My son, who is 15 and a junior IPSC shooter, and I swap range officer duty when at home (I am a nationally certified range officer). Here is our routine: whenever a firearm touches our hand we show clear to the other person, always and without fail, its obnoxious and was tedious at first but now its habit. We even have a penalty: cost you 2 bucks if you don't show clear! When I unload my carry weapon and my son is home I have him visually and verbally supervise me as we do in IPSC.

That being said I will tell you I am terrified of guns. As a clinical therapist I have helped several families cope with accidental firearm fatalities. All you need to do to make these practices part of your life is to look at a few crime scene photos and work with some grieving families.

I would also encourage everyone to go to a USPSA club and shoot some and see how guns are handled. It is amazing to me how sloppy most people are with firearms compared to anyone who has shot IPSC. It's the most fun you can have with your clothes on!

So, to recap: 1) Weapons and ammo handled only in a designated safe zone. 2) No ammo in the same room as a firearm except in the safe zone. 3) VISUALLY inspect the chamber EVERYTIME a firearm comes into your possession, even when it has been handed back to you from a person you just handed it to. AND INSIST that anyone you are with does the same. 4) Have another person stand behind you in the safe zone and supervise the unloading/loading process. When your spouse or teen are involved in this they see and experience the respect you have for firearms...this is a safer practice than doing it alone, it makes you accountable, trains others in safe gun handling and makes everyone part of a safer home. BTW our safe zone is a closet because the restricted space makes it impossible to unintentionally turn around with a weapon in hand. My son will stand outside the closet behind my back inspecting the process looking over or slightly around my shoulder, he is shielded by my body. If he isn't sure he's seen clear he ask me to show clear again. We are both quite anal about this and its been great for our relationship.

Thanks for having the stones to post dk-corriveau! And remember, guilt is the belief you screwed up, shame is the belief that you are a screwup... You'll get past this and be a better man for it. You are not a screwup.
 
dk-corriveau,

Glad no one was shot and my compliments on having the good sense and courage to talk about it. It reflects well upon you that you called an ND a Negligent Discharge and acknowledged that you were responsible for what happened and that you know that it was wholly preventable. Now you can find ways to prevent the incident, and others like it, from ever happening again.

I had something much more stupid happen to me and I "moved on" by dissecting what I had done, discussing the incident with my wife and detailing what I had done improperly, going over the changes in gun handling that would prevent this from happening again and asking her to go over those changes and advise me if anything could be done to improve upon those measures. The ground rules of the analysis were laid out by both of us with the following basis agreed upon - gun's don't shoot themselves; the gun didn’t fail, I did; guns were still going to be in the house unless the results of our analysis indicated that there was no safe way for me to handle firearms; there were practical solutions to the problem resulting from my negligent gun handling.

I involved her for several reasons. As my partner in our home I could not not involve her in improving the safety of our home when a recognized hazard was identified (even if my behavior was the hazard), as my wife I wanted her to have confidence that I wouldn't make excuses and sweep the incident under the rug discounting it as a freak accident (that would have gotten me tagged as the "freak" by her), as an intelligent responsible adult I wanted her analysis of what I did wrong and what I did right and what could be done to prevent this type of problem ever happening again.

All this allowed us to get beyond the fact that I screwed up.

Now to the pragmatic question of what to do to prevent an ND in the house.

You've already indicated that you understand that someone carrying/handling firearms should not consume alcohol. Let's be explicit about this so there's no confusion. Nothing that impairs your judgment or motor skills is compatible with handling firearms. This obviously includes alcohol, but should include medications that make you drowsy or have any intoxicating effect and don't forget severe fatigue.

When handling a gun prior to shooting or holstering the slide/cylinder should be open and the chamber visible. You've got that one already.

If you're going to put the weapon anywhere except in your holster you should look at the chamber and at the cylinder/mag well to visually verify that they are empty. You should then stick the tip of the small finger into the chamber to verify by touch that the weapon does not have a round in the chamber.

If you are going to drop the slide on an auto that you think is unloaded, before you drop the hammer, rack the slide at least 3 times. This insures that if you have failed in verifying the chamber is clear or if you have failed to verify that the mag is empty you will eject any ammunition that could be negligently discharged. If a round pops out during this process stop and lock the weapon open and go through the entire verification and slide rack process again.

If you're putting the gun away don't put the magazine in the weapon. This prevents a round from a loaded magazine from getting into the weapon.

If you are going to pull the trigger to relieve spring tension on the components point the gun straight down into a 5 gallon bucket of sand. Should the weapon discharge the sand will soak up the bullet and no damage to the home (or owner) will result.

If these things become ritual then they should prevent a ND from occurring and minimize the damage should one occur in spite of all the measures taken to prevent it.
 
Just a couple of comments:

1. Very glad that you and everyone else are ok.

2. My definition of an AD vs. a ND is; an AD is due to mechanical failure - I had this happen once at an indoor range on a Beretta .380 I had rented. I inserted the mag, racked the slide to chamber a round, dropped the slide as you normally would and the pistol discharged. A ND is due to human error, plain and simple.

3. I realize that this can happen to anybody but I still believe from watching numerous people handle guns that some are just inherently more lax about safety. I have, in fact, refused to go shooting with some people after having watched them handle their weapons.

4. The person that introduced me to firearms said something that has always stuck with me and I want to pass this along.

"Guns were invented for one purpose and that is to kill."

Remembering this statement helps me to always keep guns in their proper perspective.

5. Finally, my wife and I have an agreement; she personally doesn't like guns at all but indulges me and has even purchased a gun or two for me.

Our agreement, as long as I handle them responsibly, no problem. If I do something irresponsibly, i.e. a ND, there will be no more loaded guns in our house. You better believe that keeps me on my toes.
 
dk-corriveau said:
I have never given any thought to the increased likely hood of such an incident with the repeated loading/unloading of my gun in my house.
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I presume you will now. When I was once working fairly long hours while carrying a Series 80 Colt, I made it a practice not to remove my gun from the holster. Even an extreme need for sleep increases the possibility of error, possibly more than five drinks would.

In general, I do not handle guns much more than necessary. I also find that revolvers are a little easier to handle safely than autos, although they are almost as easy to leave a round in.

Perhaps a safe might make it easier to put away your gun without playing with it.

Best wishes. Probably most of us have screwed up at least once. Most of those who survived have figured out how to keep it from happening again.
 
Thank you all for your posts and support, I’ve needed it. This has been a very unpleasant experience and one that I will carry with me forever.

Templar223

If it makes you feel better to claim victim status by saying it could happen to us, that's fine.
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I am not trying to claim victim status. I think I have been pretty clear from the start about who was responsible for this….ME! I am not saying this to make myself feel better, I am saying this as a word to the wise.

With regard to my comments about it happening to anyone, I worded myself poorly. A more correct way of putting it is that anyone can cause an AD/ND. They don’t happen to you, you cause them to happen (excluding those caused by a mechanical failure of some sort). You are not the victim, you are the cause. Some people are safer than others, but that does not exclude them from the possibility of it happening.

Hso

Thank you for your comments about the discussion with my wife. We have already started it and I have shared with her some of the comments I have received here. I plan to make this an ongoing discussion so that we can make sure our procedures address any changes that may arise in our lives. Needless to say, there will be changes to our gun handling policies around the house and in general for that matter.
 
Saying ND is a real bad habit. If you're ever involved in an accidental shooting that involves lawyers don't let the other side hear you say that you were negligent as this is a legal term that means "I was totally at fault so you may now sue me for everything I own or will ever own and I am guilty of any criminal charge the anti-gun prosecutor cares to charge me with."

I know that it's all cool and hip in some circles to say ND instead of AD but it's a very risky thing in our litigious culture.
 
The more often you do something habitually, the more likely you are to become lax, and that's when accidents can happen. The odds will also catch up to you as well. It sounds like you empty your gun every night as routine as brushing your teeth. Anytime you handle a gun in the house it creates risk that you will actually fire a round into your house. ;) I would leave it in the holster, and put it away for the night. If safety is concern get a safe.

Thanks for sharing.

JM
 
one last thought

one last thought from my earler post.
decockers are wonderfull things if thier an option on the gun you carry.
 
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