Quantcast

Negligent discharge-how?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by ohihunter2014, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. ohihunter2014

    ohihunter2014 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,754
    Location:
    Ohio
    A friend of mine was cleaning her S&W M&P 40cal the other night and said she took out the magazine, racked the slide back and forth about 3-4 times, holding the gun sideways (stove pipe clear way) and let the slide go forward and pulled the trigger and the gun went off inside her house. One thing I do not agree with that we were shown in the PD academy was take the mag out, pull slide back, close slide with release and pull the trigger so its not cocked. I kind of understand it but I'm wondering if she didn't revert back to training and pulled the trigger or if it was to take the slide off.

    Now, my question is, if she really did turn the gun to the side with the ejection port facing the ground and racked the slide 3-4 times how in the world didn't the live round come out? She had a lot of misfires at the range during qualifications with that same gun and factory Winchester ammo so could it be a faulty gun?
     
  2. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    11,069
    Location:
    Hopewell Big Woods
    Could be an extractor problem? On firing, the case pushes the slide back, this aids extraction/ejection.

    Some 22 rim fires have no extractor.

    Operator error - simply look into the firearm to see if the chamber is empty.
     
  3. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    3,324
    Location:
    Iowa
    She may not have fully cycled the slide and the extractor held the round in place.
    That's why it is important to visually check the chamber.
    Not seeing a round ejected should have been noticed as well.
     
    warnerwh, Ed4032, milemaker13 and 8 others like this.
  4. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    11,001
    I would think it has to be an extractor problem or user error. Maybe a totally broken extractor?

    Visual inspection is key.
     
    Snowdog, Demi-human and ohihunter2014 like this.
  5. George P

    George P Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Messages:
    3,785
    She didn't see the round come out? When I am unloading a gun with a round in the chamber, I make sure to see the round eject and then I STILL check the chamber; and since I must pull the triggers on my Glocks for disassembly, I always do this regardless of the gun in question
     
  6. danez71

    danez71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,503
    Location:
    CAAZ;TX?

    If that her dept training for the M&P then her dept is training wrong.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
    Duster340 and 1KPerDay like this.
  7. Winkman822

    Winkman822 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Messages:
    762
    Location:
    Delaware
    I don't see how this could have happened. If I recall, disassembly of the M&P requires that the slide be fully retracted/locked to the rear for the disassembly lever to be rotated down (a la Sig), and the then the slide dropped and the trigger pressed. With all that, I just don't see how there can be an ND without user error involved even if there is a bad extractor tossed into the mix.
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    60,035
    Location:
    Alabama
    This, you look into the gun after dropping the mag and racking the slide. I always drop the mag, rack it and lock it back, then visually check it.

    Oh, then I drop the slide, point it in a safe direction and pull the trigger before putting it away. Use appropriate protection for rimfires when dry firing.
     
  9. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    5,051
    Location:
    Fl panhandle
    She may be confused in her explanation of what happened. What is certain is that she didn't do a visual inspection,
     
    1976B.L.Johns., ATLDave and Odd Job like this.
  10. Jack B.

    Jack B. Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,626
    Location:
    Cocoa
    Gotta look.
     
    Duster340 and Odd Job like this.
  11. Godsgunman

    Godsgunman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2012
    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    Olathe, KS
    It's already been said in about every response. VISUAL INSPECTION would have easily resolved the issue. Check, double check, then check again. Every self inflicted ND I've seen while cleaning have sworn the gun was empty. These same people never did a visual.
     
  12. ohihunter2014

    ohihunter2014 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,754
    Location:
    Ohio
    That's what I do and that's what we were trained to do. Stick your pinky finger inside after visually checking. I'm not one to stick my finger in there for fear of the slide closing on it but at minimum visually check it.
     
    fordtrucks likes this.
  13. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,600
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    One of two things happened;
    1. The round in the chamber did not extract, and she did not visually and tactily (stick a finger in the chamber) inspect the chamber.
    2. She's lying.
     
  14. ohihunter2014

    ohihunter2014 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,754
    Location:
    Ohio
    She claims it went off trying to clean it which i take it she was trying to take the slide off so she pulled the trigger.

    I have an M&P fullsize also and the slide must be locked back (which should eject/extract the round) , released forward and trigger pulled to take it apart. If this is how she did it and if this did indeed happen trying to take it apart is what confuses me. Wouldn't the round be out of battery if the slide wasn't fully on the frame and the gun blow apart?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  15. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,600
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    Read post #13. These are the only two possiibilities, given the information provided.
     
  16. Reloadron
    • Contributing Member

    Reloadron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    7,690
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    I am in the group that visually checks the chamber. I can't understand how on a perfectly well functioning gun the extractor would fail several times to extract and eject a live chambered round? That said with the slide pulled back it is not difficult to get a visual of anything in the chamber.

    I think there may be a few pieces to the puzzle missing. :)

    Ron
     
    FL-NC and ohihunter2014 like this.
  17. ohihunter2014

    ohihunter2014 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,754
    Location:
    Ohio
    I am in the visual check also. I rack it several times and look inside to see if something is in it. I asked her twice last night and she says "I went to clean it, racked it, closed the slide and pulled the trigger and bang".
     
  18. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    2,456
    Front Sight teaches to slightly open the slide, verify nothing in the chamber, drop the mag, inspect that the mag is empty, then slightly open the slide again to recheck it is empty. IOW visual is everything.
     
  19. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    6,060
    Location:
    The Dark Side of the Moon
    One needs to be sure before pulling the trigger... ever single time.

    The only way to be sure is to put one's eyeball on the empty chamber, with adequate light.

    Going through rote motions obviously didn't work out the way she intended.
     
  20. Reloadron
    • Contributing Member

    Reloadron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    7,690
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Then we can only attribute it to The Supernatural. :) That or things didn't go exactly as claimed. We can't demand a do over so that is out. Empty guns simply do not go bang. Fortunately nobody gut hurt so she can come away with a lesson learned, visually check the chamber. A good friend shot his Dillon Scale with a .380 which he "thought" was empty, obviously it wasn't. :)

    Ron
     
    ohihunter2014 likes this.
  21. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    16,053
    Location:
    Happy Valley, UT
    the slide was fully on the frame. Nobody said anything about rotating any lever. She probably got confused about the order of operations required for disassembly and thought it was like the glock where you pull the trigger and THEN move the disassembly tabs down. I've done this myself with my M&P if I haven't taken it apart for a while. However in my case I VISUALLY CHECK THE CHAMBER three times before pointing in a safe direction and pulling the trigger.
    She obviously didn't. Or, as noted above, she's lying or remembered the sequence wrong.

    I'm inclined to speculate that for some reason she inserted a loaded mag and racked it at some point. But regardless... there's zero excuse for not visually confirming an empty chamber.

    I've also been told by ostensibly knowledgeable people that you should visually check for an empty chamber rather than visually checking for brass. If you are checking for brass and you see brass, apparently your brain can go, "I found what I was looking for... proceed." So mentally and visually confirm "empty chamber."
     
    danez71 likes this.
  22. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    11,001
    I agree. Small distractions can easily cause a person to think they did something that they didn't. When a routine task becomes mundane, inadvertently skipping steps can occur.
     
    Slamfire and 1KPerDay like this.
  23. danez71

    danez71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    4,503
    Location:
    CAAZ;TX?
    Yep. Different take down procedures.

    The lever was designed in to negate the need to ever pull the trigger during takedown.
     
  24. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    11,001
    I can believe that. I don't know how many times I've walked in my bedroom to find my car keys in their normal resting place, only to find them, get distracted by something else, and walk out of my bedroom without my car keys. After a hearty "son of a $%&#+!" I walk back into my bedroom and actually pick up my keys.

    I don't sleep much since changing jobs, so I have this happen more often than I care for. It has made me very aware of the need to be centered and focused when handling a firearm.

    I wonder if this individual is sleep deprived on a regular basis. Sleep deprivation can have serve impacts on short term memory and focus if allowed to persist for too long.
     
    1KPerDay and RedlegRick like this.
  25. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    8,149
    Location:
    Middle Tn
    One other thing, I would want to look at the fired case involved in the ND. It may not have had an extractor groove, or it may have had the groove cut off location. Only other thing I can imagine would be a short case (or 9mm) allowed it to drop further into the chamber than it should have and in that case it may not even be visible.

    Agree though, drop mag, rack, stare at cartridge on the floor as slide goes home. Point safe and pull trigger.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice