New Arisaka project!

[LoonWulf]

Recently bought this little project off of gunbroker. These are my favorite places to start, someone else has already devalued the rifle as a tru "collectable", and actually did a pretty decent job of it.

The barrels be shortened to 19" (which i wasnt aware of, but i cant honestly say i read the description thoroughly...mostly i bought it cause it looked cool). Ill probably recrown it.
Stock may be cut down at the rear, i dont know how short the standard stocks were, and looks to have wood added to allow a reshaping of the grip and comb. There are some dings from shipping, and its in need of a good sanding.
The woods kinda delaminating, figgure ill glue it back up, and maybe install a squishy pad as the stocks about 2 inches too short for me.
It needs a new magazine box and a rear action screw. It also came without a front sight, firing pin, firing pin spring, or safety knob, but i already have those parts.
The bore looks perfect and the action is pretty smooth, better than my other Arisaka sporter was when i got it.
All in all this will make a wonderful small stature shooter/ kids rifle...yes it will end up costing me more than buying an off the shelf rifle, it will also provide hours of entertainment for me.

Now a question, i have a wiliams reciever sight on my other arisaka, but its also topped with a scope...
Should i drill and tap this one for the reciever sight or a scope mount, both of which i already have from the other gun or other projects.









post a picture

 

[boom boom]

Loon, I would suggest using acraglass instead of something like hotstuff to repair the stock. In my experience it does better especially under recoil. Is it a type 38 or 99?

 

[LoonWulf]

Will do, i still have some acraglass from a while back. Its a 99, id have preferred the 38 since its cut down so much.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

6.5 or 7.7mm?

Sam

 

[LoonWulf]

7.7...got the stock glued back up, ill give it a day to cure then sand it down and re oil it.

 

[LoonWulf]

So after messing with it, ive found that this thing has also been rechambered to 06. Id wondered at the janky mag box it came with.

 

[boom boom]

LoonWulf,
Unless whoever did it right, you may find very short lived brass--some were converted by Americans during the Korean War as a last ditch weapon for South Koreans when things were so bad. The action will take it but the chambers are too large near the case head due to differences in the cartridges and often result in early failure of the cartridge. I would do a chamber cast using Cerrosafe to be sure.

You can find sporterized Arisaka barrels in very good shape at Numrich's--earlier T-99 Arisaka barrels had chromed bores until late in the war. 7.7 Arisaka is now available through Prvi Partisan along with the brass. I also see them from time to time on fleabay for well less than $100. A major issue is timing the barrel as the Arisaka has an ejector cut and somewhat unusual shank which makes it difficult to simply set back the barrel--It is also a PITA sometimes to change a barrel out. Had a very early lightly sporterized very early T38 carbine converted to a school rifle--rifling was near non-existent and had rust in the pits. Never could budge that barrel nor could the gunsmith I took it to even though I had a good condition carbine barrel to replace it.

I simply restored it with a broken carbine stock that I got for little of nothing along with a poorly treated handguard as a display firearm only and I will never fire that particular rifle--have put in a firing pin with no tip and a note inside the bolt that this rifle should never be shot as is for future owners.

 

[boom boom]

Oh, one last thing, Bob's Gun parts in Arkansas did have some nice new sporter aftermarket stocks for the Arisakas. Might be worth a look if you wanted something different.

 

[LoonWulf]

Thanks boom boom ill check out Bobs as i may want another stock.
Right now the gun has the exact opposite issue as youd expect, the chambers too tight. A brand new, or fully resized, case will nust barely chamber. I think the guy who cut the chamber did it by hand and used a crush fit on a factory round to set the headspace.

Right now im contemplating getting a few tube for it, and if i can find one cheap enough i probably will. As long as i can get my local smith to swap the barrels for me im all right with headspace being a little out of spec, i can move the shoulder forward on the case if necessary, or ream the chamber if its short.

I may also just finish reaming the chamber to 06.

 

[Merle1]

So after messing with it, ive found that this thing has also been rechambered to 06. Id wondered at the janky mag box it came with.

So it is a .31-06 now? Perhaps you can use .30-06 cases opened up to .31 - should be easy to reload.

 

[Merle1]

Thanks boom boom ill check out Bobs as i may want another stock.
Right now the gun has the exact opposite issue as youd expect, the chambers too tight. A brand new, or fully resized, case will nust barely chamber. I think the guy who cut the chamber did it by hand and used a crush fit on a factory round to set the headspace.

Right now im contemplating getting a few tube for it, and if i can find one cheap enough i probably will. As long as i can get my local smith to swap the barrels for me im all right with headspace being a little out of spec, i can move the shoulder forward on the case if necessary, or ream the chamber if its short.

I may also just finish reaming the chamber to 06.

Once again, handloading should solve your chambering problems - set the sizing die for the length of your chamber & you're good to go.

 

[LoonWulf]

The issue is that even with my sizer cranked all the way down chambering is still difficult. I COULD grind down my sizer a bit to make them fit, but Id much rather just have the chamber reamed out.

And yeah, if theres enough space in the neck ill use my .312 bullets. If not, ill try .308s for decent accuracy. after that then a new 7.7 barrels probably a better option, just bought one for 36. If i can get my local smith to turn it on and it times pretty close that might be my answer.

 

[boom boom]

Glad to hear that it was a sporter with tight chambers rather than the military rush jobs. That should be easier to finish ream to your desired headspace. A .31-.06 would be an interesting round and certainly one of a kind. The action can certainly take it. BTW, what are you thinking about triggers? The regular arisaka triggers aren't great and being mauser like--a bit difficult to make good. Perhaps a Timney or Huber?

 

[LoonWulf]

Yeah im kinda intrigued as to wether or no i can use the .31 call bullets, really depends on the chamber neck width. Im not inclined to turn necks. As to the trigger Im thinking timney on this one. If im gonna use it as a kids/loaner rifle, it will need an easier to operate safety option. Ive changed springs and polished my other t99 trigger, it runs about 5lbs and pulls about like a slicked dao pistol.

 

[boom boom]

I actually find the Arisaka safety easier to apply than a Mosin--use the heel of your hand to push in and rotate the safety rather than fingers-but then again I have arthritic fingers. Nice pull on your mod trigger--did you single stage it?

 

[tark]

Ahhhh..... another old myth resurfaces. The one about Arisakas being unsafe to rechamber to 30-06 because the arisaka's chamber is too large due to the dimensional differences of the two rounds. They are different, but the 7.7X58 round is actually the SMALLER of the two, with a base diameter of .472 vs .473 for the 06. Go look it up in Cartridges of the World. The unsafe things about these conversions was the metal supporting the lower locking lug was frequently relieved by grinding, to make room for the longer GI round.

Having said that, longer the war went on, the sloppier things got regarding tolerances. Chambers on the substitute standard rifles, often called the "last ditch" guns, can be all over the place. I have one that is WAY oversize at .483.It doesn't appear that this is the case, here.

My 99 will chamber and fire 308 ammo, which leaves one with a rather odd looking empty. It looks like a 7.7 case with a neck about 1/16" inch long. Accuracy is , oddly enough, quite good. I'm talking three " at a hundred. Not something I would recommend doing all the time, but not dangerous. More of an emergency solution than anything else. I won't raise any hackles by saying 7.65 Argentine and 300 savage ammo also can be fired in a 99 That last one gives you a straight walled empty

 

[LoonWulf]

I agree, the Arisaka safety is much easier to operate as compared to the Mosin (unless a scope is involved, ill post a picture of what I did on my other t99 to get around this). I never used the safety on my Mosin sporter. When i hunted with it, I chambered a round when I was setting up to shoot. Dont fire, round comes back out.
The trigger is still two stage but very smooth now so the increase in pressure dosent seem so much like a second stage as it does a slight increase in take up pressure. Makes shooting the gun kinda different, tho if you pull very slowly you can still feel a hitch before it will release.

The current gun im working on has had its trigger worked on, but i havent really looked at it yet as im more concerned with making sure the stock wont come apart, and I get the thing cycling and firing properly.

Tark, thanks for the info. By all accounts, and from the finish on the INSIDE and bottom flats (barrel and receiver look to have been sanded) of the reciever, this looks to have been an early gun.
Im pretty sure your right about the chamber, infact the gun LOOKs to have been fired semi recently, and the seller sold it as 7.7....im guessing he tried firing a round or two in the gun and they came out looking funny.
If you drop a 7.7 round into the chamber then close the bolt on it, the claw (even if you flex it out so itll hop the rim) wont grab the rim, but if you put the round in the mag it will pick it up and hold it pretty firmly against the bolt face. I bet, tho i wont try it, i could fire 7.7 or 308 rounds in this thing and that big claw would keep them in place so they fire form to the chamber....again supposition, not inclined to find out.

 

[boom boom]

With due apologies LoonWulf about semi-threadjacking, just wanted to correct the record. Tark's post bothered me enough to go get my reloading manuals because I haven't fired nor reloaded my Arisaka T-99's in about eight years. During the great ammo shortage of 2008-9, looked into converting .30-06 cases which is why this stuck in my mind. Either my memory was going, or something was wrong.

FYI, Tark, you are incorrect---.30-06 and .308 measures .470 across the case web (not the head), Arisakas, of course, were never a SAAMI or CIP approved cartridge. Thus, reloading manuals show .477 for the Arisaka in Speer #6 Manual p. 248, .473 in Lee's Rev. 2nd ed. p. 419, .471 for Hornady's 7th p. 546 and 8th Edition, .4725 in Loaddata.com, and so on. If you care to peruse, it appears that the folks at cast boolits, milsurps.com, and gunboards, are all under the same spell. Thus, that "old myth" seems to have infected multiple reloading manuals over time. In reality, it isn't a myth. The problems of the Arisaka chamber in this caliber became known because the easiest way to get brass for reloading post war was converting .30-06 brass. Thus, many sought out military brass simply because it is thicker in this area. This conversion had problems, specifically the swell at the rear of the chamber expanded and worked the brass just in front of the ejector recess. I have three T-99's and unfortunately have to tailor my brass to each.

BTW, the same problem happened when Century converted French MAS 7.5x54 to .308. The breech end of the MAS was larger than the .308.

In practical terms, there are several things going on, Japanese military rifles were designed to work in pretty lousy conditions and chambers are generous, there is no comparable standard like the .30-06 for chambers or even headspacing, tolerance variance of last ditch rifles made at multiple armories varied quite a bit.

The conversion was more than just notching the bolt also--notice the notch in the receiver in the picture as described in the source below.

"The conversion was far from easy. Mechanically, the rear part of the barrel had to be cut back and the chamber extended forward about 0.197″ to accommodate the .30-06 Springfield, which was larger and longer than the 7.7mm Arisaka cartridge. This process was slowed by the fact that the 130,000 Type 99s chosen, a total of 6,650 were of the long-barrel version and the production jig had to be altered to convert it.

The internal magazine also had to be reworked to accommodate the .30-06 and capacity fell to five rounds. The bolt had a notch cut in it to accept US Army-standard stripper clips.

Finally, the imperial chrysanthemum emblem was ground off and the rifles were phosphated.

Another issue was that the .30-06 Springfield generated more recoil than the Arisaka 7.7mm round and these converted rifles had a vicious kick. The biggest problem was the condition of the Arisakas to begin with. It was discovered that many were the “last-ditch” ones made in 1945, missing parts and with very sloppy workmanship." Taken From

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/wwii-japanese-weapons-in-the-korean-war/

There is even an old U.S. Army technical manual of the conversion floating around on the net if you like.

Thanks for your postings on this conversion LoonWulf and for letting me know that you can improve an Arisaka trigger. When I get them out again, I'll take a look at doing that.

 

[LoonWulf]

Good post boom boom, i hadnt checked manuals in a while didnt hadnt checked cartridge dimensions properly. Im taking it to my local smith today to see what he thinks, it will perhaps be better to got ahead and rebarrel

 

[boom boom]

LoonWulf, thanks for your kind word and patience. A chamber cast using Cerrosafe will give you the exact dimension of the chamber and also the condition of the throat--shouldn't take long or cost much. A second way is to pickup Hornady's headspace comparator (older ones made by Stony Brook), load and fire one new brass Arisaka round, and then measure the brass before carefully and then after firing. This will give you headspace and brass case enlargement caused by chamber. Grafs and sons has the 7.7 Japanese ammo from Prvi Partisan and did have some from Hornady which I think uses Prvi brass.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive ordered some cerrosafe just for that, ive got a brownells edge membership so i buy alot of single items as i think of them...yeah im that guy.
Ive got pvi 7.7 cases and bullets and have a load, actually pretty hot load i wouldnt want to shoot in this stubby little gun, for my other Arisaka.
I wish i could find factory ammo here, but nobody has any...which is kinda wierd cause so far every time Ive talked to someone about it they always have one, or know someone who does.
After the guns visit with the smith, I think ill have a better idea of where im going with this. Ive decided to wait till the 7.7 barrel I ordered comes in before dropping it at the shop, so Im probably on hold till next week or the week after. Ill get to play with the cerrosafe, ive always wanted to try making a chamber case....no idea why...., and ill take that with me when i take the gun

 

[LoonWulf]

So ive spent some time with my calipers and spent cases. My spent (and new) 06 cases are all .464-468 at the head, .470is the largest ive found.

My 7.7 is .473 at the head, only got one brand pvi.

Also heres some pictures of my other Arisaka. You can see the Williams sight on the side and the knob i added to the bolt shroud so i can use the safety with the scope in place. I can thumb it on and off like that.











pic host

 

[mountian girl]

hello guys its me again,,,,,,lone wolf do you use bore bright on chambers,??????????????

 

[mountian girl]

hello broc luno,,if you here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[tark]

Well, I guess I learned something! But the myth I meant to refer to was the one that the 7.7 cartridge itself was larger in dia than the 06'. As in larger enough to be a real problem. It isn't. The real problem was the sloppy chamberings in the rifles. Made worse by the fact the last ditch guns were preferred because the bores had no chrome plating; which chewed up the re-chambering reamers. At least , that's what I heard.

Anyway, thanks for the knowledge Boom Boom. I learned a thing or two and now I know what a conversion looks like. I have never seen one until now.