New H&K M4 at SHOT!!!
- Thread starter Greg Bell
- Start date
- Status
Nightcrawler
Member
The Robinson rifle has a lot going for it. It's very modular, even more so than many ARs, allowing its configuration to be swapped around quickly and easily.
It's biggest downfall is that being made by one small company, the price is and will probably remain high, much higher than the rifle it's competing with, which is produced in large quantity by subcontractors and is assembled and sold by a myriad of companies.
It's biggest downfall is that being made by one small company, the price is and will probably remain high, much higher than the rifle it's competing with, which is produced in large quantity by subcontractors and is assembled and sold by a myriad of companies.
ZM Weapons does not use a gas piston, IIRC. They use two gas tubes (one riding inside the other), where one is fixed to the carrier and the other is fixed in the upper, crap isnt blow all over the inside of the reciever, but it still gets inside the carrier.
Kharn
Kharn
The problem with HK making an M4 clone in .45 ACP would be that there are no pre-ban magazines available unless they had the foresight and business sense to use an existing magazine like the Grease Gun or something along that line.
Of course I don't think HK cares a whole lot about American consumers buying it. However, I can't really see law enforcement or the military having any use for it.
Of course I don't think HK cares a whole lot about American consumers buying it. However, I can't really see law enforcement or the military having any use for it.
WonderNine
member
Hell yea!
A *new* AR-15 style .223/5.56X45mm that doesn't crap where it eats.
Sign me up for a few 20" models.
I'd like to know how accurate they expect it to be.
A *new* AR-15 style .223/5.56X45mm that doesn't crap where it eats.
Sign me up for a few 20" models.
I'd like to know how accurate they expect it to be.
More pics
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html
THE HKM4 SYSTEM
Inspired by the resounding success of the midlife improvement program of the British SA80 (L85/L86) Weapons System, Heckler & Koch began a detailed assessment of the technical deficiencies of the standard US-issue M4 Carbine in early 2002.
Combining the lessons learned from this program to the already world renowned design, testing and manufacturing capabilities of HK an
internally funded project was launched to improve the reliability, safety and durability as well as the salient features of the baseline weapon system.
Working with current users from around the globe HK set out to produce an M4-type Carbine that would outperform the baseline weapon and provide the high degree of performance required by the user community, particularly those within the special operations arena who demand more and expect no compromise when lives are at stake.
High-speed video assessment and extensive live-fire testing in extreme operational environments such as the U.S. Army Desert Proving Ground in Yuma, Arizona revealed multiple areas for immediate improvement. Improvements have been made to the internal operating system and miscellaneous component parts to improve reliability in best and worse case scenarios, with all types of ammunition, with all barrel lengths and with and without sound suppressors attached.
A unique user removable gas system can be factory retrofitted to existing weapons and fits within modified hand guards or a modified Rail Interface System (RIS) allowing all current standard accessories and sights to be fitted to the HKM4 as normal.
The HK-proprietary gas system does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapons’ interior. This radically reduces operator cleaning time, increases the reliability of the weapon and
extends the interval between stoppages.
The elimination of the gas tube typical of the Stoner AR15/M16/M4 direct gas operating system means that the HKM4 will function normally even
if the weapon is fired full of water without first being drained.
To improve reliability, service life and operator safety during obstructed bore occurrences or after extreme extended firing sessions (>300 rounds) HK has produced its famous cold hammer forged barrel for the HKM4 in various lengths to include 10, 14.5, 16.5, and 20 inches.
The highest quality European steel is used in this unique manufacturing process producing a barrel that provides superior accuracy for greater
than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation. The goal of the program to offer an M4-style carbine that will fire 20,000 rounds without cleaning, lubrication, stoppages, or parts replacement has been realized in the development of the HKM4 Enhanced Carbine.
In addition to the improvements in the baseline weapon HK has produced a high reliability magazine and a proprietary buffer to improve functional reliability as well as an add-on single shot 40 x 46mm AG-C grenade launcher for quick attachment to the RIS without tools.
HK has applied its proven and fielded Safety Blank Firing Attachment and Live Round Excluder Magazine technology to the HKM4 Carbine to eliminate the possibility of live rounds being loaded into and fired through a standard issue weapon outfitted for blank firing only.
While development and validation testing of the HKM4 is still ongoing, it is anticipated that HK will offer retrofit services for existing M4-style
weapons to the HKM4 standard for U.S. and foreign military and law enforcement users. A “ drop in†HKM4 upper receiver module and a complete carbine are also nearing completion.
The HKM4 has been developed by HK for use by military and law enforcement personnel as an interim performance upgrade to existing US M4 carbines to improve solider survivability in combat until the XM8 design is completed, fully tested and available for fielding. The HKM4 is not expected to be available for military or law enforcement deliveries until late 2004. No definitive decision has been as yet made to offer the HKM4 or its components for commercial or retail purchase.
The full potential of the M4 carbine has now been realized with the introduction of the HKM4.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Features:
• Short-stroke piston gas system--
--Improved reliability
--100% function
--No fouling directed into weapon
--Less cleaning
--User removable/exchangeable components
--Insensitive to barrel length or ammunition changes
• Improved buffer system
• Improved steel magazine:
--Improved feeding reliability, durability, service life
• Refined barrel/bolt locking recesses/lugs:
--Improved function
• Improved extractor and spring, buffer:
--Improved function
• Enhanced AG-C add-on 40mm grenade launcher
• HK cold-hammer forged barrel
--Extended service life
--Improved accuracy and user safety
Additional ongoing work:
• Monolithic upper receiver with integral Rail Adapter System
• Improved surface finish, ambidextrous controls
• Safety Blank Firing Adapter and live round excluder magazine
• HK free-floating modular rail system
• Integrated reflex sight with nested IR laser aimer and illuminator
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HKM4 Specifications
Caliber 5.56mm x 45
Barrel Overall Weight Stock
10 26 & 29.5 7.21 Vltor Collapsible
14.5 30 & 33 3/8 7.09 Vltor Collapsible
16.5 35 7/8 7.47 A2
20 38 8.22 A2
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html
THE HKM4 SYSTEM
Inspired by the resounding success of the midlife improvement program of the British SA80 (L85/L86) Weapons System, Heckler & Koch began a detailed assessment of the technical deficiencies of the standard US-issue M4 Carbine in early 2002.
Combining the lessons learned from this program to the already world renowned design, testing and manufacturing capabilities of HK an
internally funded project was launched to improve the reliability, safety and durability as well as the salient features of the baseline weapon system.
Working with current users from around the globe HK set out to produce an M4-type Carbine that would outperform the baseline weapon and provide the high degree of performance required by the user community, particularly those within the special operations arena who demand more and expect no compromise when lives are at stake.
High-speed video assessment and extensive live-fire testing in extreme operational environments such as the U.S. Army Desert Proving Ground in Yuma, Arizona revealed multiple areas for immediate improvement. Improvements have been made to the internal operating system and miscellaneous component parts to improve reliability in best and worse case scenarios, with all types of ammunition, with all barrel lengths and with and without sound suppressors attached.
A unique user removable gas system can be factory retrofitted to existing weapons and fits within modified hand guards or a modified Rail Interface System (RIS) allowing all current standard accessories and sights to be fitted to the HKM4 as normal.
The HK-proprietary gas system does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapons’ interior. This radically reduces operator cleaning time, increases the reliability of the weapon and
extends the interval between stoppages.
The elimination of the gas tube typical of the Stoner AR15/M16/M4 direct gas operating system means that the HKM4 will function normally even
if the weapon is fired full of water without first being drained.
To improve reliability, service life and operator safety during obstructed bore occurrences or after extreme extended firing sessions (>300 rounds) HK has produced its famous cold hammer forged barrel for the HKM4 in various lengths to include 10, 14.5, 16.5, and 20 inches.
The highest quality European steel is used in this unique manufacturing process producing a barrel that provides superior accuracy for greater
than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation. The goal of the program to offer an M4-style carbine that will fire 20,000 rounds without cleaning, lubrication, stoppages, or parts replacement has been realized in the development of the HKM4 Enhanced Carbine.
In addition to the improvements in the baseline weapon HK has produced a high reliability magazine and a proprietary buffer to improve functional reliability as well as an add-on single shot 40 x 46mm AG-C grenade launcher for quick attachment to the RIS without tools.
HK has applied its proven and fielded Safety Blank Firing Attachment and Live Round Excluder Magazine technology to the HKM4 Carbine to eliminate the possibility of live rounds being loaded into and fired through a standard issue weapon outfitted for blank firing only.
While development and validation testing of the HKM4 is still ongoing, it is anticipated that HK will offer retrofit services for existing M4-style
weapons to the HKM4 standard for U.S. and foreign military and law enforcement users. A “ drop in†HKM4 upper receiver module and a complete carbine are also nearing completion.
The HKM4 has been developed by HK for use by military and law enforcement personnel as an interim performance upgrade to existing US M4 carbines to improve solider survivability in combat until the XM8 design is completed, fully tested and available for fielding. The HKM4 is not expected to be available for military or law enforcement deliveries until late 2004. No definitive decision has been as yet made to offer the HKM4 or its components for commercial or retail purchase.
The full potential of the M4 carbine has now been realized with the introduction of the HKM4.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique Features:
• Short-stroke piston gas system--
--Improved reliability
--100% function
--No fouling directed into weapon
--Less cleaning
--User removable/exchangeable components
--Insensitive to barrel length or ammunition changes
• Improved buffer system
• Improved steel magazine:
--Improved feeding reliability, durability, service life
• Refined barrel/bolt locking recesses/lugs:
--Improved function
• Improved extractor and spring, buffer:
--Improved function
• Enhanced AG-C add-on 40mm grenade launcher
• HK cold-hammer forged barrel
--Extended service life
--Improved accuracy and user safety
Additional ongoing work:
• Monolithic upper receiver with integral Rail Adapter System
• Improved surface finish, ambidextrous controls
• Safety Blank Firing Adapter and live round excluder magazine
• HK free-floating modular rail system
• Integrated reflex sight with nested IR laser aimer and illuminator
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HKM4 Specifications
Caliber 5.56mm x 45
Barrel Overall Weight Stock
10 26 & 29.5 7.21 Vltor Collapsible
14.5 30 & 33 3/8 7.09 Vltor Collapsible
16.5 35 7/8 7.47 A2
20 38 8.22 A2
WonderNine
member
Absolutely.
And the same company has been developing the XM8? I think there's something at work behind the scenes here.
Alot of wasted tax dollars, but if somebody comes out with a brilliant idea like a gas piston M-16, then I guess it was all worth it.
See, I'm used to working for the government so I know how this works......
From the HK website Buzzsaw copied:
I think that means "Make thier postman go on disability due to the sheer volume of mail he has to carry in every day regarding a civie HKM4."
Also, notice the HK-style add-on sights in the pic Gabe posted. Where's the drooling smiley?
Good thing I havent started my shorty carbine project yet, forget the Bushmaster superlight and everything, this is what I gotta have, if it costs less than I make in a year. But, the exclusion of the ejection port cover sits a little oddly with me.
Kharn
I think that means "Make thier postman go on disability due to the sheer volume of mail he has to carry in every day regarding a civie HKM4."
Also, notice the HK-style add-on sights in the pic Gabe posted. Where's the drooling smiley?
Good thing I havent started my shorty carbine project yet, forget the Bushmaster superlight and everything, this is what I gotta have, if it costs less than I make in a year. But, the exclusion of the ejection port cover sits a little oddly with me.
Kharn
DougCxx
Member
Wow........ an overpriced copy of a Colt Sporter...... where do I sign?
:|
---------
I am willing to bet several favorite body parts that it certainly won't be cheaper than a Colt.
If it works better for the same price, that would be great....
-but somehow I think it's going to cost twice as much or more, with only marginal improvements.
And apparently they are still deciding if it's t0O r4D1C4L !!!! for ordinary people.
If you are one who already has one of each "M16" from every manufacturer ever then it is one more for the pile. Otherwise I don't see much reason for buying one.
~
:|
---------
I am willing to bet several favorite body parts that it certainly won't be cheaper than a Colt.
If it works better for the same price, that would be great....
-but somehow I think it's going to cost twice as much or more, with only marginal improvements.
And apparently they are still deciding if it's t0O r4D1C4L !!!! for ordinary people.
If you are one who already has one of each "M16" from every manufacturer ever then it is one more for the pile. Otherwise I don't see much reason for buying one.
~
"Inspired by the resounding success of the midlife improvement program of the British SA80 (L85/L86) Weapons System"
That is confidence inspiring.
"I am willing to bet several favorite body parts that it certainly won't be cheaper than a Colt."
It is also WAY heavier than a Colt.
If there was ever a non-issue, it is the direct-gas-impingement system of the M16 family of rifles; unless of course someone is just looking for something to complain about.
That is confidence inspiring.
"I am willing to bet several favorite body parts that it certainly won't be cheaper than a Colt."
It is also WAY heavier than a Colt.
If there was ever a non-issue, it is the direct-gas-impingement system of the M16 family of rifles; unless of course someone is just looking for something to complain about.
ny32182
Member
I think what they mean by "still deciding" is that there is no chance in hell of ever selling it on the commercial market.
I bet the upper alone is over $2000. And its not even hitting the LE market until the end of this year... that means any possible commercial production won't occur for a long time afterward.
Forget that. Looks like I'm going ahead with my Bushy preban upper build at the end of this year.
I bet the upper alone is over $2000. And its not even hitting the LE market until the end of this year... that means any possible commercial production won't occur for a long time afterward.
Forget that. Looks like I'm going ahead with my Bushy preban upper build at the end of this year.
Of course we won't know for some time but I'm thinking...
Will this be better and if so how much better?
If it is significantly better why now after all this time? I realize that the idea isn't new but it seems that none of the big AR companies have bothered with it. So is it a fix for a non-existant or minor problem or are "our" AR companies just not progressive enough?
Will this be better and if so how much better?
If it is significantly better why now after all this time? I realize that the idea isn't new but it seems that none of the big AR companies have bothered with it. So is it a fix for a non-existant or minor problem or are "our" AR companies just not progressive enough?
QuarterBoreGunner
Member
What am I seeing here?
It also looks like H&K has adapted their diopter sight system for the AR.
I wonder how much modification the handguards take? Also it looks like the gas exhaust port is right under the top handguard- wonder if it gets as hot as my FAL with the steel hanguards does.
edited to resize picture
It also looks like H&K has adapted their diopter sight system for the AR.
I wonder how much modification the handguards take? Also it looks like the gas exhaust port is right under the top handguard- wonder if it gets as hot as my FAL with the steel hanguards does.
edited to resize picture
Schuey2002
Member
(As I wipe the drool off my keyboard..)
Who do I make this here money order out to??
Who do I make this here money order out to??
If it trickels down to the rest of us, I'll be happy
I mean, if there is a great way to improve or better the AR15 design, why not? Especially with being able to retrofit existing weapons, I think this is a great idea. Will make the XM8 a harder to sell concept though.
MagKnightX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2003
- Messages
- 867
I actually think the lines look cleaner and better than any AR I've ever seen.
Still, I won't be holding off on the AR purchase I'm planning, because the worst could happen, and we may never be able to get ARs/AKs/FALs/etc. again. But if there is no new AWB passed, then I will get one of these if possible.
Still, I won't be holding off on the AR purchase I'm planning, because the worst could happen, and we may never be able to get ARs/AKs/FALs/etc. again. But if there is no new AWB passed, then I will get one of these if possible.
George Hill
Member
This is an interesting development.
The M96 was mentioned as using an oprod, and of course it does... but the M96 also has one other major improvement over this HKM4, and that is a fixed ejector.
I'd rather have the SOPMOD version of the M96, which Robinson calls the "RAV02".
Another advantage is that the Rave uses 7.62MMX39. The question I have is that if 5.56MM Nato was so smokin, why is SOCOM going to a rifle in 7.63X39?
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?id=1345
Sure, commercial and surplus loadings for it are pretty average - but this round could be loaded a lot hotter and I am thinking that is what the SOCOM group is looking at.
This HKM4 is only a partial solution... but it does tackle the biggest issue I have with it. Now if they would have just gotten rid of that star chamber and the "Sproing" then I'd be a lot happier with it.
Unfortunately we cake eating civilians will probably never get an HKM4 or a Robinson RAVE...
But you can get a Robinson M96 Recon... or for 600 bucks less, one of these from Krebs:
You guys can play around with trying to fix the AR-15... I don't have that kinda time.
The M96 was mentioned as using an oprod, and of course it does... but the M96 also has one other major improvement over this HKM4, and that is a fixed ejector.
I'd rather have the SOPMOD version of the M96, which Robinson calls the "RAV02".
Another advantage is that the Rave uses 7.62MMX39. The question I have is that if 5.56MM Nato was so smokin, why is SOCOM going to a rifle in 7.63X39?
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?id=1345
Sure, commercial and surplus loadings for it are pretty average - but this round could be loaded a lot hotter and I am thinking that is what the SOCOM group is looking at.
This HKM4 is only a partial solution... but it does tackle the biggest issue I have with it. Now if they would have just gotten rid of that star chamber and the "Sproing" then I'd be a lot happier with it.
Unfortunately we cake eating civilians will probably never get an HKM4 or a Robinson RAVE...
But you can get a Robinson M96 Recon... or for 600 bucks less, one of these from Krebs:
You guys can play around with trying to fix the AR-15... I don't have that kinda time.
artherd
member
One M4gery profile 16" bbl for me NOW PLEASE!
atek3
Member
Now if they would only put a 7.62x39 boltface on the HKM4, chamber it in .26 grendel and sell uppers to civies, I'd be all over that stuff. As soon as I leave the PRK. A battle rifle for the 21st century I'd call it.
atek3
atek3
BerettaNut92
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Messages
- 9,723
Dude, anyone got a closeup of that frontsight?
- Status
