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New Hydrashocks?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by CrudeGT, Sep 30, 2003.

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  1. CrudeGT

    CrudeGT Member

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    I was flipping through a new issue of handgun magazine and in the last few pages they list new rumors and stuff they have heard through the grape vine. One of the things they mentioned in this issue was a new version of Federal Hydrashocks. They didn't really give any more info than that. it was just one sentence saying that these new hydrashocks would be out soon and they were new and impoved. I was wondering if you guys had heard anymore on this? maybe when they're coming out, or what is new about them?

    I keep my primary clip for my concealed carry loaded with Hydrashocks, so I'm definitely going to pick up some of the new stuff whenever it's available.

    (BTW, i'm new, and i must say I like this board. Seems like a lot of well educated people that are out to help and not be rude. Kinda rare to find a board where people aren't getting flamed on every thread)
     
  2. mete

    mete Member

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    Companies are always trying to make better bullets . The Hydra-Shok has aready undergone changes so there is always a chance that they will be further improved or even replaced. But they are already one of the best bullets on the market so don't expect and large improvement in performance from a new one. My own experience only goes to woodchucks with 155 - .40 cal. but the favorite in actual police street use for the .45 is the 230 Hydra-Shok. .....Welcome to the forum....If you are a new shooter you may not be aware that before the infamous FBI shootout in Miami there were no standards so the companies didn't know what kind of bullets to make. Since the shootout, standards have been established and better bullets continue to be made within the standards.
     
  3. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    A quote from Doctor Roberts on TF...presents it better than I ever could.

    "As written in previous threads about older bullet designs (HINT--use the search feature), the Hydra-Shok was state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. In .45 ACP, the best performing bullets we currently see in our testing are the: Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon (RA45T), Winchester 230 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA45TP), Federal 230 gr Tactical (LE45T1), and Speer 230 gr Gold Dot (23966)."
     
  4. Safety First

    Safety First Member

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    Welcome to THR, it's a fun place to visit ....
     
  5. .45FMJoe

    .45FMJoe Member

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    I can't wait to get my paws on some of those RA45TP rounds. Gawd, they sound like sex on, ummm....copper?!?!:D
     
  6. TheeBadOne

    TheeBadOne Member

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    Hydrashoks are still the .45 ACP round all others are compared against, for a reason. It works very well.
     
  7. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    I just shot a box of RA45TP last weekend, still got one box left. Apparently they're loaded a bit longer than Hydrashocks and therefore engaged my slide stop while there were still rounds in the mag. Getting a new slide stop from Kimber, then I'll shoot some more and start carrying the Rangers. They're a little hotter than the Hydras, but that's ok with me :D
     
  8. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    People compare to the Hydra Shocks because they were one of the first "engineered" bullet designs.

    But they are old news...as demonstrated by Federal realizing the need to update...probably because sales are starting to lag.

    Info on performance is much easier to get now...hearsay doesn't get you far.

    Hint.....gun mags are not the best source for empirical data!

    Thanksfully...the ability to hit what you aim at is still the #1 concern
     
  9. Island Beretta

    Island Beretta Member

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    Some of you makes it sound like 'old news' is bad news. If you check it out most of the time all that has been done is that the 'old news' has been repackaged and renamed. Handgun and ammunition technology is not like computer technology, they do not change very often.


    Glocks have been around for 20 years and people still call it a new design and question the polymer concept in handguns. During that time computers have gone from needing a building to be housed to being carried in my pocket..wait a minute here what's this P6s are out but I just bought a P3.. sorry got to go, need an upgrade...:eek:
     
  10. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    It's about to become academic…

     

    Federal/ATK, as I reported five weeks ago, is about to discontinue Tom Burczynski's "battle-tested" Hydra-Shok in favor of a new anti-personnel handgun round from Alan Corzine, one of the co-patent holders of the Winchester Black Talon/SXT (nee "Black Widow") round of a decade ago.

    Hint to Obiwan: while you are quite correct, and proper, in your choice of language about Hydra-Shoks (preferred spelling) being "one of the first 'engineered' bullet designs," sales may in fact be "starting to lag," they still retain the greatest marketshare although Speer/ATK's Gold Dots are pressing them.

    As for "gun mags" not being "the best source for empirical data," gunzines are probably only the best source for good firearms photography. With the advent of the Internet, whatever information they contain is usually stale by the time it hits the newsstands… assuming, arguendo, that the information has any value with which to begin….

     
     
  11. CZF

    CZF Member

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    Any truth to the rumor that the new design: HI-SHOK 2 will be restricted to
    Law Enf. sales only?
     
  12. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    Who said that they would be called "Hi-Shok2," and who told you that they would be restricted to Law Enforcement? Do you really think that ATK would take such a popular round off the market and not allow its replacement to fill that gap?!?

    You gotta get a better source for rumors, I think…:p

     
     
  13. CZF

    CZF Member

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    Federal Hi-Shok 2
    Federal Hi-Shok 2 (HST) bullets feature a hollow point cavity precisely engineered for each caliber and load.
    From www.streichers.com
     
  14. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    O, sweet honey mustard…

     

    …look, CZF , I'm not trying to drive a stake into your heart here, just trying to find out the basis of your curious information. Where does anything on the site you referenced suggest…
    • …that "Hi-Shok 2" is a "new" round?
    • …hat "Hi-Shok 2" is the successor to Hydra-Shok?
    • …that the "Hi-Shok 2" rounds are restricted to Law Enforcement?
    Honest to Peter G. Kokalis, if that's your source, you need to read a little more carefully.

     
     
  15. CrudeGT

    CrudeGT Member

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    After looking over the description, i don't think the Hi-Shok2 are re-designed Hydra-Shoks. I see where you got all the info, kind of. It is easy to assume that the Hi-Shok2 is the next in a series to the Hydra-Shok, but they aren't. And it mentions on the site that any item marked with a (+) is restricted to sale to an agency only. however, the Hi-Shok2 does not have the (+) insignia. and they are not new. Also, in a world where you get what you pay for, and the more expensive the better, why would the 'new' hydra-shoks be less than the old hydra-shoks? it just doesn't add up. I think the Hi-Shok2's are just hollow points.
     
  16. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

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    Hi-Skok have been loaded in Federal CLASSIC ammunition for YEARS! Hi-Shoks are just your average Hollow Point and Soft Point ammunition.

    It ain't nothing new.

    Hydra-Shok is the hollow point with the post that is loaded in the Federal PREMIUM line.

    It ain't exactly new either.


    Y'all just listen to Dean, I do.


    Why you ask? Yes you did ask, I heard you.
    I listen to him because he knows what he talks about.
     
  17. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Ive heard this for a while and think the point has some merit.

    The Hydra-Shok bullet design is possibly outdated, IMO. The hollow cavity is small and the little "Hydrastatic point" in it, that facilitates "better expansion when loaded with Hydralic pressure" does work in theory. But, IMO, there are better bullet designs out currently.

    Bullet manufactures are starting to really listen to the public and looking at real life situations when a defensive bullet may be used by the Public as well as LEA's.

    Clothing or other media filling up the hollow cavity is becoming a huge issue these days. The smaller cavity was originally thought/designed as to, fill with fluids faster in comparison to a large one and thus react to the fluids and expand faster/more efficiently.

    Now current testing and other improved bullet designs are getting better results when shot through "common barriers" like denim etc.
    The smaller/more efficient hollow point of the Hydra fills up with demin and
    can lead to limited or complete lack of expansion.

    With this knowledge and experience under some bullet makers belts, already they are striving to make JHP/Defensive Bullets that work in real work conditions better than some of the older technology.....

    Why do you think Federal had such great hopes for the EFMJ lineup? It was rumored upon the initial release of the Fed. EFMJ to be the replacement for the Hydra-Shok line. I could be wrong about that..my memory doesnt always serve me. Fed. realized that the market share wasnt there. Its one of the only other +P line of rounds to be released by Federal and was done so to "give it more merit" as a defensive round.

    Another question...Whats so strange about a new JHP being released to LEO's only? Federal has done it for years. +P+ 9mm Fed's I use in my CCW at times are LEO only ammo. Sure you can get em...anyone can.

    But you come across with a subtle sarcasm to CZF when he brings this up.
    Why? Because he brings up stuff that Fed. is releasing about an new bullet that frankly, IMO, theyve needed for a long time?

    Not only is the bullet design on the Hydra outdated IMO, the pressures and velocities are truely down on other bullets that in the same class.

    Example : +P+ 124 gr Hydra Shok typically get less than 1180-1200 FPS from the typical 9MM s/auto...when +P 124 Gold Dots have more velocity.

    Corbon and the Ranger ammo in true +P / +P+ configurations/pressures stomp the Hydra's for any given velocity ratings.

    And the irony here is even Federal claims to have made the round to a higher pressure/velocity for more consistant expansion against fluids.
    This is needed because of the smaller JHP design........

    Sorry for the rant....but I feel CZF's and other points were being besmerched without just cause and I havent had my coffee yet :D

    Dean on your own website..you give indication yourself that the Hydra-Shok is getting updated. Its the bottom line on the paged linked below.

    http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html

    You state something along the lines of: Never one to rest on his laurels Burczynski has also created for Federal the HS2. Another updating of the seminal Hydra-Shok.

    Just one mans opinon.......

    Shoot well :rolleyes:

    BTW...Dean, nice web site....thanks. Shoot well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2003
  18. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    Bluesbear… my blushes.

    And now to PCRCCW:
    My "business" has always been about information which frequently caused some difficulties in an area where the standard has long been to re-write manufacturers' press releases.

    So as new information comes along, my standard is to evaluate it along certain criteria. And when anyone says something like: "any truth to the rumor that…," it's important to know the source of that rumor.

    I asked CZF that question, and he pointed us to a commercial site where the information utterly failed to support the "rumor" he initially questioned. Certain inferences may be drawn from that, and I hardly need to enumerate them.

    As for "subtle sarcasm," I'll cop to a certain impatience with those who pass rumors without first applying some basic critical thinking skills, or, as what seems to have happened here, read X, understood it as Y and asked about Z.

    Except that it's apparent that someone is discussing at least three, if not more, separate issues here as if they are one.

    Hydra-Shok is one… and Hi-Shok has nothing to do with Hydra-Shok, and never has.

    Federal's (as yet unnamed) "new and improved" Son-of-Black-Talon "replacement" round from Alan Corzine hasn't been released to the best of my knowledge… and that knowledge is reasonably current.

    Please, let's not lose sight of one basic fact: there is no such animal as "+P+" anywhere in the SAAMI (or, for that matter, CIP) playbook, and the only "+Ps" are in 9 X 19mm, .38 Special, .45 ACP and, oddly enough, .257 Roberts. The "+P+" designation is nothing more than a marketing conceit, originated, I believe, by Federal with their "restricted" 9BP/LE. Others, most notably CorBon, have picked it up and run with it… in Peter Pi's case, all the way to the bank, bless his cynical li'l heart.

    Application of some Critical Thinking here: does anyone think that if they pressure-tested something like, to use one you cited, "+P+ 124 gr Hydra Shok" or, arguendo, a CorBon ".40 S&W 135-grain +P," that the pressures would be above the SAAMI-accepted limits of, respectively, 9 X 9mm +P or plain ol' garden variety .40 S&W?

    The other issue which too many have failed to grasp, is that modern handgun projectiles have been engineered to perform (terminal ballistics) at specific velocities, so that if Tom Burczynski's Starfire "machine-in-a-bullet" 230-grainer is designed to open within a 825-900 fps range and penetrate to a depth of 10-14 inches, what does driving the identical projectile 100-150 fps faster actually accomplish?!?

    Suffice to say, it defeats the engineering of that projectile. In this realm, "faster" isn't better except in the minds of shooting customers who haven't thought things through very thoroughly.

    And I can guarantee you that there was more that went into such a "change" than just upping the velocity. Take a close look at how the cavity, "post" and ogive of the Hydra-Shok has evolved over the past 30 years… or just in the past 15-17 years that Federal has licensed the design!

    First, I don't consider a reasoned and focussed discussion a "rant," but I still haven't seen any supporting information from CZF which would lead him to reasonably conclude that the successor to Hydra-Shok would be called "Hi-Shok2," or would be restricted to Law Enforcement.

    And again, Hydra-Shok has been continually "updated" since its inception… I have in my extensive .45 ACP collection, four different iterations of the damned thing, and I stopped that part of the collection seven years ago!

    That said, before there's anymore confusion, there are some very different rounds being referenced in this one thread:
    1. Federal Hi-Shok (non-premium).
    2. Federal Hydra-Shok.
    3. Federal HS2 (already released).
    4. Federal EFMJ.
    5. Federal "XXX" (as yet unnamed and unreleased).
    Note that all but the last are out there and happily co-existing.

    I suspect that ATK/Federal's venerable Hydra-Shok has lost some significant marketshare to ATK/Speer's Gold Dot, and each division would like bragging rights… things like that go all the way back to, in my lifetime at least, Evinrude and Johnson.

    What I just don't as yet understand is how Federal hopes to simply discontinue such a popular round which is the issue round for so many departments and agencies. If they are able to pull that off, then their marketing and sales force could get Gore into the White House in early 2005!

    And thank you, PCRCCW, for your gracious remarks as well.

     
     
  19. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Isn't there also an official spec for .38 Super +P? (Or is that also a part of the wunnerful world of box-flap ballistics?)
     
  20. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    Hey, Tam…

    It may be reasonably argued that ".38 Super" is actually a ".38 Automatic +P" since the two rounds are dimensionally identical, but no, there is no ".38 Super +P," just a .38 Super with higher pressures than a .38 Automatic.

    Last time I looked, most .38 Super packaging advises that it should not be fired in firearms marked ".38 Automatic" or ".38 Auto," and I suspect that any .38 Super rounds which are offered by anyone other than CorBon (who marks just about everything as "+P") which carry the "+P" appellation, are so marked as an extra hedge against someone using them in one of those "antique" pistols built for the .38 Automatic.

     
     
  21. Deep Blue

    Deep Blue Member

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    LOL!:D
     
  22. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    Points well taken. Just a note.
    On the web page of yours that I refer to, you mention the "Fed HS2" is the next incarnation of the Hydra-Shok....

    What gives? This is the round that CZF regards in his comments yet its the Hi-Shok 2.......

    So can you expand on this for me...................................
    :rolleyes:

    Tamara, you say "Box Tab Ballistics" like there is another kind! :D
    You mean that isnt absolutely true information? Hmmmmmmmmm

    Shoot well
     
  23. Dean Speir

    Dean Speir Member

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    Upon information and belief, Federal is in fact marketing a (premium, or perhaps Law Enforcement) round developed by Burczynski and known as "HS2," a short form of Hydra-Shok 2.

    Clearly the round on that commercial site to which CZF linked, is offering the non-premium "Hi-Shok 2," which I believe to be unrelated to Hydra-Shok, but I'll ask Tom Burczynski just in case I need deconfusing. New information develops all the time: i.e., last February the new round introduced at SHOT by Gaston and company, was the "45 Glock," and very definitely was presented without a decimal point. By the time ATK/Speer had brought it to SAAMI, what was approved (and wisely, I believe!) was the ".45 G.A.P."

    And while Tam can certainly speak for herself, I think by "Box Tab Ballistics" (nice coinage, BTW) she's encompassing both "Nominal Velocities" and "marketing hype."

     
     
  24. 45crittergitter

    45crittergitter Member

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    Tom Gresham said today (Oct 12, 2003) that the EMFJ is the Hydrashock replacement, according to Federal.
     
  25. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    I sincerely hope thats not the case! Ive not had good luck with the EFMJ's in regards to accuracy in my guns. Which is NOT the case with Hydra's regardless of caliber or weapon of choice.l

    Ill have to give them another shake.....hmmmm.

    Dean,
    I was kidding about the ballistics thing. We chrono once in a while but its been a while. Tamara does have a most eloquent style, doesnt she?

    Shoot well
     
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