Bluesbear… my blushes.
And now to
PCRCCW:
But you come across with a subtle sarcasm to CZF when he brings this up.
My "business" has always been about information which frequently caused some difficulties in an area where the standard has long been to re-write manufacturers' press releases.
So as new information comes along,
my standard is to evaluate it along certain criteria. And when anyone says something like: "any truth to the rumor that…," it's important to know the source of that rumor.
I asked
CZF that question, and he pointed us to a commercial site where the information utterly failed to support the "rumor" he initially questioned. Certain inferences may be drawn from that, and I hardly need to enumerate them.
As for "subtle sarcasm," I'll cop to a certain impatience with those who pass rumors without first applying some basic critical thinking skills, or, as what seems to have happened here, read
X, understood it as
Y and asked about
Z.
Why? Because he brings up stuff that Fed. is releasing about an new bullet that frankly, IMO, theyve needed for a long time?
Except that it's apparent that someone is discussing at least three, if not more, separate issues here as if they are one.
Hydra-Shok is one… and Hi-Shok has nothing to do with Hydra-Shok, and never has.
Federal's (as yet unnamed) "new and improved"
Son-of-Black-Talon "replacement" round from Alan Corzine hasn't been released to the best of my knowledge… and that knowledge is reasonably current.
Not only is the bullet design on the Hydra outdated IMO, the pressures and velocities are truely down on other bullets that in the same class.
Example : +P+ 124 gr Hydra Shok typically get less than 1180-1200 FPS from the typical 9MM s/auto...when +P 124 Gold Dots have more velocity.
Corbon and the Ranger ammo in true +P / +P+ configurations/pressures stomp the Hydra's for any given velocity ratings.
Please, let's not lose sight of one basic fact: there is no such animal as "
+P+" anywhere in the SAAMI (or, for that matter, CIP) playbook, and the only "
+Ps" are in 9 X 19mm, .38 Special, .45 ACP and, oddly enough, .257 Roberts. The "
+P+" designation is nothing more than a marketing conceit, originated, I believe, by Federal with their "restricted" 9BP/LE. Others, most notably CorBon, have picked it up and run with it… in Peter Pi's case, all the way to the bank, bless his cynical li'l heart.
Application of some Critical Thinking here: does anyone think that if they pressure-tested something like, to use one you cited, "+P+ 124 gr Hydra Shok" or,
arguendo, a CorBon ".40 S&W 135-grain +P," that the pressures would be above the SAAMI-accepted limits of, respectively, 9 X 9mm +P or plain ol' garden variety .40 S&W?
The other issue which too many have failed to grasp, is that modern handgun projectiles have been engineered to perform (terminal ballistics) at specific velocities, so that if Tom Burczynski's Starfire "machine-in-a-bullet" 230-grainer is designed to open within a 825-900 fps range and penetrate to a depth of 10-14 inches, what does driving the identical projectile 100-150 fps faster actually accomplish?!?
Suffice to say, it defeats the engineering of that projectile. In this realm, "faster" isn't better except in the minds of shooting customers who haven't thought things through very thoroughly.
And the irony here is even Federal claims to have made the round to a higher pressure/velocity for more consistant expansion against fluids.
This is needed because of the smaller JHP design........
And I can guarantee you that there was more that went into such a "change" than just upping the velocity. Take a close look at how the cavity, "post" and ogive of the Hydra-Shok has evolved over the past 30 years… or just in the past 15-17 years that Federal has licensed the design!
Sorry for the rant....but I feel CZF's and other points were being besmerched without just cause and I havent had my coffee yet
Dean on your own website..you give indication yourself that the Hydra-Shok is getting updated. Its the bottom line on the paged linked below.
http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html
You state something along the lines of: Never one to rest on his laurels Burczynski has also created for Federal the HS2. Another updating of the seminal Hydra-Shok.
First, I don't consider a reasoned and focussed discussion a "rant," but I still haven't seen any supporting information from
CZF which would lead him to reasonably conclude that the successor to Hydra-Shok would be called "Hi-Shok2," or would be restricted to Law Enforcement.
And again, Hydra-Shok has been continually "updated" since its inception… I have in my extensive .45 ACP collection, four different iterations of the damned thing, and I stopped that part of the collection seven years ago!
That said, before there's anymore confusion, there are some very different rounds being referenced in this one thread:
- Federal Hi-Shok (non-premium).
- Federal Hydra-Shok.
- Federal HS2 (already released).
- Federal EFMJ.
- Federal "XXX" (as yet unnamed and unreleased).
Note that all but the last are out there and happily co-existing.
I suspect that ATK/Federal's venerable Hydra-Shok has lost some significant marketshare to ATK/Speer's Gold Dot, and each division would like bragging rights… things like that go all the way back to, in my lifetime at least, Evinrude and Johnson.
What I just don't as yet understand is how Federal hopes to simply discontinue such a popular round which is the issue round for so many departments and agencies. If they are able to pull that off, then their marketing and sales force could get Gore into the White House in early 2005!
And thank you,
PCRCCW, for your gracious remarks as well.
