New Jersey State Police Suing Sig

[Walt Sherrill]

You've also brought up NJSP had issues with extraction and ejection when testing S&Ws. Uh...maybe there was a problem with them too. You also seem to be alleging NJSP has some extraction and ejection conspiracy going on.

I'm the one who explained some of the details about the North Carolina Highway Patrol (NCHP) having problems with their M&Ps in .357 SIG. I first heard of the problem from my son, a Master Trooper (a rank) and later followed the story in the media (online and in newspapers. It was not a secret. My son is pretty proficient with most weapons, and never had problems with his M&P.

In the case of the NCHP (S&W) handguns, it did prove to be a "gun" problem rather than an ammo or shooter problem, but unlike the model of the SIG P229 used by the New Jersey State Police (NJSP), the M&Ps the NCHP used was NOT a variant of the standard M&P model -- it was just your standard M&P in .357 SIG. Production of all M&P models (and guns using the same basic design) running the .357 SIG round were discontinued soon after that debacle. Even the new M&P2, which is a revised (and arguably improved weapon) isn't presently available in .357 SIG.

We don't even know the caliber of the NJSP guns that were having problems. The fact that the suit says the NJSP has switched to Glock 19s (9mm) suggests that the SIG guns were probably 9mm, but we don't know that. Unless the P229 variant used by the NJSP is no longer being produced in that caliber, we don't know that the problem is similar to the S&W problem (which seems to be a structural issue).

I suspect that SIG will buy back the guns in question, just as S&W did, lick their wounds, identify and fix the problem for that P229 variant, and continue making and selling handguns. People seem very willing to rush to judgment, nowadays, about all matters, not just gun matters. There will probably be a head or two rolling at SIG here in the U.S....

(Did you notice in the details of the suit, that the NJSP paid $1.6 million for the guns, and roughly $800 thousand for the holsters!? While I'm truly ignorant of the cost of double or triple retention duty holsters, that still seems high!)

Note: I'm NOT a SIG fanboy. I have only one SIG -- a GrayGuns-upgraded P228 that I'm trying to sell, and its both accurate and lovely to shoot. While it's a very nice gun, I've come to realize that SIGs DO NOT* fit me well -- I generally shoot other gun better. I don't blame the gun, as SIGs appear to fit a lot of shooters VERY WELL.. (I must note, too, that a SIG P-210-6 I owned some years back remains the best-shooting, most-accurate handgun I've owned. A S&W 52-2 was a close second.)

*Those two words were omitted when i made some changes to the paragraph. Changes the meaning entirely!! Duh.

 

[Gordon]

We all so quickly forget the LAPD Glock 21 problems which were pretty identical and took quite a while to resolve. Live and learn and give new weapons when you screw up.

 

[jhb]

when i read the complaint first thing i thought was....who on the gun boards is gonna say problem is ammo or nj cops limp wristing.....started reading thread posts and bam......too funny.

 

[cocojo]

Recoilrob is correct. The manual says no steel cased ammo but thats what they used. They had problems shooting steel cased ammo and they are suing sig because of it. They want their money back so they can buy Glocks. Really how old were their 229's they have? Their crazy in New Jersey its all about money.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

cocojo: where did you find they were shooting steel-cased ammo? I missed that. (For practice ammo it could make sense -- given that most law enforcement agencies have been on very tight budgets for a number of years -- but for carry ammo?)

 

[cocojo]

Lets just say I got very good info. Im surprised that they would use steel cased ammo for training. I think they are gold digging.

 

[rscalzo]

Worked well for them for 18 years... except one malfunctioned and got a Trooper killer. that's why they switched to the S&W /Walther SW99 that they couldn't get to work. they couldn't get the sig 320 to work. Seems they can't get much to work. Some wanted the Glock and it seems they keep failing anything but.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

..[steel-cased ammoun round] except one malfunctioned and got a Trooper killer

Not disputing your comment -- or saying it's untrue -- just curious: how does ammo malfunction in a way that would kill someone if it wasn't due to an unsupported case or a very HOT load. (i.e., a kaboom) ?

I've seen and heard of other ammo-related problems/issues, but it's almost always been mistakenly hot loads (too much powder, etc) from the factory or reloads, unsupported cases, or both.. A too-hot ammo happened here (NC) a while back with fresh factory ammo used by some campus police who were shooting at an indoor range where I shoot.. (Nobody hurt in that case -- hands "stung" --, but messed up at least one gun..) The ammo company acknowledged the fault and made things right.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I think blaming NJ fails when Sig came in said so many guns were out of spec by so much. And face facts, not so many years ago American made Sigs were getting a terrible reputation.

 

[ATLDave]

Just a reminder/observation that allegations in filed complaints are just that... allegations. Many things said in complaints turn out not to be true, or (even more frequently) to be less than all the facts. Complaints are advocacy documents written by one side presenting what they say are the (most important to them) facts.

 

[Officers'Wife]

This is all between the SIG people and the state of New Jersey that quite frankly I don't have enough information to form an opinion on one way or another. While they are still having problems even after SIG has "reengineered" the weapons I have to wonder if the units are "off the shelf" or have some special standards that are the brainchild of the administration to make them "safer."

 

[Acera]

Sig has responded to the allegations.

From a statement released to 'The Outdoor Wire'

STATEMENT REGARDING NEW JERSEY STATE POLICE

May 21, 2017 – Sig Sauer, Inc. is aware of the lawsuit recently filed by the State of New Jersey regarding its purchase of the Sig Sauer P229 model handgun by the New Jersey State Police (NJSP).

The NJSP selected the Sig Sauer P229 handgun as its new duty weapon after conducting an in-depth review and exhaustive testing of available handguns. Sig Sauer developed a version of the P229 specific to the requirements of the NJSP, and delivered to the NJSP as scheduled in the summer of 2014.

Following delivery, the NJSP informed Sig Sauer that it was experiencing failures during qualification training with their training ammunition. Sig Sauer immediately began working with the NJSP to determine the cause of this failure and resolve the issue.

Sig Sauer’s investigation of the failure mode indicates a contributing factor may be a compatibility issue between this unique NJSP P229 and the specific training ammunition used by the NJSP. Importantly, these failures were limited to the training ammunition used by the NJSP, and the P229s functioned when using their duty ammunition.

Sig Sauer had been diligently working with New Jersey officials to resolve the issues associated with the P229 handguns it purchased. In light of these discussions, Sig Sauer was surprised that New Jersey filed a lawsuit. Sig Sauer is committed to customer satisfaction, and stands ready to continue these discussions and work with NJSP to reach an equitable solution.

 

[JR24]

Sig has responded to the allegations.

From a statement released to 'The Outdoor Wire'

"Specific requirements of the NJSP" and "training ammo"

These two points, if true, explain to me why only NJSP seem to be having problems.

They monkied with a proven design and Sig couldn't make the new design work (much like the initial Glock 19M issues).

Bad on NJSP for having stupid (I assume) requirements, bad on Sig for failing to deliver a working product.