New Kel-Tec Bullpup Rifle

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One feature that would really have me saving my pennies is a quick-change (or at least easy-change) barrel.

I would love to get the 32" sniper version, and be able to put the 18" carbine barrel on it.
 
Aestheticly similar to the British SA-80.

Depending on the price and the function I could definately see one of these in my future. However, it seems that the US built AUG reproductions will be available sooner so I will probably have one of them first.
 
2) How well does a bullpup protect the shooters from KABOOMs. The chamber is right by the face. It could very easily be a very bad situations.

Here's a partial answer from a KT employee on another forum:

the way we get around the bad trigger issue is we don't have a trigger transfer bar.... Instead we have a hammer transfer bar, so the trigger mechanism is still in the grip, near the trigger.


Yes, destructive testing will be done....there are 2 layers of 1/16" thick aircraft quality steel in between your face, and the action of the gun...It makes it hard to check if the chamber is empty, though. You have to remove the mag and lock the bolt back, then you can feel the chamber.


Here's the thread:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=499;action=display;num=1168612912

Another thread of interest. ktwm is a KT employee;

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=499;action=display;num=1168627658
 
SO....is Kel Tec after the military/LEO market with this rifle? Or is it really intended to be marketed to regular folk?
 
Neat looking, and I like to see new firearm innovation, something Keltec seems to do a goodly amount of to which I applaud them.

That said, even near the MSRP being spoken of here can buy a heck of a nice M1A or FAL or .308 AR and leave a whole lot left over for ammo.

C-
 
I'm guessing $1600 is what it'll be selling for, give or take $100.

As for reliability of cartridge ejection...I dunno, I'm thinking it's not going to be an issue. There doesn't seem to be any possible way they could bind up in the tube, so short of an extractor failure there's nothing really to go wrong there, they just go forward (or so is my understanding). The trigger is awesome, and the whole thing is just so small and light...

I already told Kel-Tec that one year is just too dang long to wait. One of the reps said something like "You never know, if things go well it might even be slightly sooner". Every month sooner would make me enormously happy. This is definitely a 2008 Christmas wish-list top item.
 
Impressive design what are they using alien technology? I have to give their engineers props for thinking outside of the box. I have the Kel Tec SU 16 and am growing to like it more and more mostly b/c it is so simple yet effective. Easy maintence and more accurate than me.
 
I really want one of these and the more I look at it the more I think I might be able to save up that kind of money in a year... but I've had an M1A as my go-to battle rifle for a few years now and I have never had a jam or failure, but if I did, it would be super easy to evaluate what happened and clear is because the action is exposed.

It seems that a FTF or FTE could be disasterous in a bull pup because the action is totally enclosed. It also seems like carbon buildup from extended firing sessions could be a problem.

I know it is like asking "what happens if a potatoe ends up in my truck's exhaust?" but what if something DOES get jammed in the ejection tunnel of this rifle?
 
Nice to see someone thinking outside the box. Probably why we bought a Sub-2000 which is downright clever.

I think I have the rifle angle pretty well covered these day, but with the 18" barrel this could make a pretty decent CQB rifle with power (shorter than an M4) , and with the long 32 inch barrel it is just about the same OAL as the M14--but lots more potential with the same cartridge.

If it will perform with FAL-like reliability we will really have something here.
 
Having manhandled the FN .223 bullpup I came away unimpressed by the enormous forend. The Kel Tec design here looks far more useable in that respect. I too lusted after the snubbie M1A's but they weigh a metric ton and cost more that I think they should. By taking on the .308 Winchester I think some unconventional people like mesself are more inclined to check it out because unlike the tacticoolers I'm thinking that it'd be awesome as a hunting rifle. With less weight than a model 94 and more barrel length than most target rifles it really represents a great balance for a hunter. Like others here I hope it's reliable but I hope it's 2 MOA capable. As for worrying about chamber checking and clearance drills, I guess I'm unconcerned because my P32 has never failed to do anything I told it to do for something like 200 rounds. I figure I'm smart enough to learn whatever I might need to know about handling a new gun. So between my positive experience with Kel tec's guns and my own self reliance I'm expecting this new rifle will be a wonderfull thing!
 
I think that they got it just about right. I'm really impressed with the short LOP and the trigger linkage. I'd like it to weigh about a pound less though, hopefully the production guns will be a bit lighter. With the 8.1 lb unscoped weight it's a bit heavy for a woods hunting gun but it would make one heckuva front door gun.

I've read rumours of a possible 5.56 version in the future. It should be light enough to make a fine woods gun but the cartridge isn't powerful enough for deer/hogs.

Powerful but heavy vs nice-n-light but too weak for big game. We need a tweener. Seems to me that Kel-Tec could sell tons of rifles if they also chambered the 5.56mm bullpup in 6.5 Grendel.:)



Big thumbs up to Kel-Tec for building a bullpup from the ground up using a nice, short action and a well thought out trigger. :)
 
I agree with you Bigfoot, a 6.5 Grendel version would be nice!

The 32" barrel version would be interesting in 6.5 G if their action can handle more than 50K psi as in the AR versions. Higher pressures with a longer barrel in 6.5 G could mean .264 winmag or 6.5 Remington mag performance from a nice short cartridge!
 
I'm all giddy with anticipation, now - I've been waiting for ages for a bullpup that looks and works just like this! But, alas, three things:

It's not coming out until 2008, so:
- It will likely have very high demand due to the elections and potential bans and
- It will have a very high initial demand and likely a roughly 1-year waiting period unless you get lucky
- Bullpups may have already been banned by 2008
 
I just barely saw this thing... Wow... This is impressive! I may just have to buy one of these!!

This years shot show seems to have more than usual.
 
The question is what sort of stoppages this rifle will exhibit. I'm actually more concerned about the fact that with the prototype I handled, it was necessary to really pull the charging handle all the way to the absolute rear to get it to cock the hammer, before dropping the bolt. In the event of a stoppage, I imagine that immediate action will be to drop mag, attempt to rack the bolt, and then turn upside down to check inside the magwell. If something is wrong it should be immediately obvious..or at least I'd hope. I suspect part of the long wait time is going to be for them to test these rifles extensively specifically in order to find that out.

One of the things I can predict will absolutely positively need to change is the bolt release. I think they'll move it somewhat and increase the size of the controls considerably, it's obvious they just hadn't gotten to that part yet.

As for the weight...the Carbine might be 8 pounds, but it certainly doesn't feel like it. The balance is phenomenal, although a loaded magazine might well change that somewhat.

If something gets jammed in the ejection tunnel, whatever's behind it is going to shove it out. It'd have to be really strongly wedged into the tube for it to stop completely, in which case you'd have to knock out the two pins, and knock the stock down to get access to the tube. Obviously, stoppages for this rifle aren't going to be quite like those of anything else before it, but I'd hold off on worries until they've actually been tested out fairly extensively.
 
As far as I know, there are six WA-2000s in existence.

And one guy has all of them.

Anyway, all you naysayers...

1. $2000 is estimated MSRP. Kel-Tec's guns usually wind up selling for around 70% MSRP, so that's $1400 street. I'll be a killjoy and say that a realistic street price will be around $1600.

2. A new DSA FAL will be around $1200 for a standard rifle. No para or Tactical stuff. A JLD PTR-91 long rifle will be significantly cheaper, but the things are heavy and long. A bone-stock M1A will also be around $1200. You can forget getting something as short as the Kel-Tec without having to deal with NFA shenanigans, and then you just gave up just about every ballistic advantage .308 has over anything else. The base configuration will be higher than the base configurations of other ".308 selfloading rifles"...but the base configuration will be on a completely different level from the other rifles.

3. The ejection concept works QUITE well—see FN F2000. Kel-Tec is also using the bolt carrier to ram casings forward. If anything, it ought to be more robust than the FN setup, simply because cases go in and out along one line (bottom to top) instead of ejecting to one side like they do on the F2000.
 
As I've said, the Kel-Tec carbine with an 18" barrel is roughly the same overall length as an OSW FAL with an 11" barrel. Same length, seven more inches of barrel. As is, the 18" carbine is about a foot shorter than my 16.25" FAL carbine, with 2" more barrel.

Of course, you can't put a folding stock on a bullpup, but I've never been big on folders anyway.

I'm one of the board's leading advocates of FAL carbines. But if this Kel-Tec rifle is reliable and rugged, it could very well push my FAL back to reserve status. (Or, since I'll have my ultra-modern rifle, it might give me cause to rebuild my FAL into that 18" faux-Israeli light barrel carbine I've always liked... :cool: ).

If it's not rugged or reliable, then oh well. Here's hoping that Kel-Tec, by pushing the release date so far back, plans to make sure the thing runs like a Swiss watch before it hits the market.

The only thing I'd add would be folding back-up iron sights. They make folding sights were the front and rear can be on the same plane now, right? It used to be that the front sights were taller.
 
Long barrels let you wring out the most from a cartridge but it won't work miracles.

From Kel-Tecs RFB rifle brochure:

"The improved ballistic efficiency of the RFB rifle derives from a very long barrel increasing muzzle velocity over 10% when compared with similar sized rifles.

The long range improvement is even more pronounced with a heavier bullet at normal velocity. An M110 SASS shoots a 175 grain projectile at 2500 fps. The RFB will fire a 210 grain bullet at the same velocity, resulting in 65% more knockdown energy at 1000 m. At the same distance the wind deflection is reduced to 72%. This ballistic performance is superior to a traditional 300 Win Magnum and closely approaches a 338 Lapua."

This is only true if "traditional 300 Win Magnum" means 180 hunting bullets at 3000 fps and 210 VLD target bullets are used in the .308. If the same bullets are used the 24" barreled 300WM still has a 300 fps advantage and the comparison isn't even close. "and closely approaches a 338 Lapua." Um, no, it doesn't. Now if they had compared to the 06, ah but the 06 doesn't say Magnum now does it.:rolleyes:

I just wish manufacturers would knock off these these dubious comparisons and tired, Slick Willie style word parsings.

"The 32" barrel version would be interesting in 6.5 G if their action can handle more than 50K psi as in the AR versions. Higher pressures with a longer barrel in 6.5 G could mean .264 winmag or 6.5 Remington mag performance from a nice short cartridge!"

No, the 6.5 Grendel runs out of gas even with a 32" barrel. My software only gives it 2800 fps with the 120 BT even with 58,000 cup pressure. Again, 260 Rem/6.5x55 territory yes but not 264 Win or 6.5 Rem mag.

I like both the 6.5G and this new gun but lets keep it real please.;)
 
That's why I keep saying they need to scale this hog up for long action cartridges. With bullpups you lose the ridiculous overall length that a loooong barrel normally gives.

.300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag would be interesting choices. What could you get out of either of those with a 32" barrel?
 
This rifle sounds highly intriguing and innovative. But do you want rounds going off right by your ear? If I could get beyond that issue, I might be more interested. And have you seen the blown-up SU-16s?

Drakejake
 
They said there's metal between the chamber and the stock, but I, too, would agree that adding a bit more protection would be a very good idea.

Ignore all the various crap about long-range uses, and alternate calibers, and focus on the usefulness of the Carbine. IMO, that's where the real advantage will lie, at least for the next 18 months or so until they start looking at other calibers.
 
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