New Member Transitioning from Hip to Concealed Carry

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Armed N. Free

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Greetings everyone!

What a great forum you've got here! I've already learned a lot and have miles of reading ahead of me I'm sure.

I've been "gun naked" since leaving the organization where I carried one professionally on my hip. As a new "concealed protection" packer, I have so many questions. I've not made a purchase yet. I can't can't figure out a concealed response to the "10 feet - 3 seconds - someone loses" scenario. I'm used to arriving "on scene" with a team on an L.E. platform, everyone with one in the chamber - single action ready. Now I have to get the darned thing off my ankle or out of my pants, put one in the chamber, and fix my sight. I think my 3 seconds are up.

I would appreciate someone with L.E. experience who could hellp me with a translation of concealed carry techniques and tactics. I don't want to shoot at ANYONE, but I've had to before and with the new entanglements of concealment, I still want to be able to retrieve my weapon, deter my attacker without shooting if possible (I never believed in "if you pull it, you fire it") and shoot cleanly and safely if necessary - all within my 3 second life expectancy.

I'm won't ask the "what's the best concealed gun question". I've already read some excellent posts about that. I'm looking at a Glock 23, a Springfield XDsc 40, an MK40 and an S&W M&P 45ACP or a S&W short 357MAG - all with Crimson Trace or equivallent.

Up until now, I've always handled protection "situations" with a short tactical 20GA, but they don't conceal very well when I have to go into towns where walking around carrying a shotgun makes dishonest people nevervous:D

Thanks for "being here" for guys like me.

Armed N. Free
 
I think I have the experience you need, I was CID for a long time and worked Hollywood Blvd for quite a while. i graduated from Mas Ayoob's LFI and this question was asked a lot.
I've done it all, shoulder holster, cross draw, outside and inside strong side.
To answer your question the best way to draw using the 21 foot model is strong side out-side the waist band. I do have an OWB holster for each of my carry guns.
But as a civie you want to hide your piece which means IWB. You can ger almost as fast with the right holster.
I have 3 main carry guns cuz I like guns. :rolleyes:
1. H K P2K in 357 Sig, Wild Bills No Such Agency IWB, DeSantis Speed Scabbard for OWB.
2. Sig 229 in 357 Sig, Wild Bills No Such Agency again for IWB, Bianchi OWB.
3. Glock 32 in 357 Sig, Wild Bill's on order, Galco SkyOps for IWB for now. Speed Scabbard to be ordered soon.

As taught at LFI I carry a spare mag and I use the Don Hume single leather mag pouch.

I drill nightly with draw, presentation in Weaver, Chapman, Isocoles. Dry fire and use all three carry guns.

The Wild Bill IWB are very comfortable and strong.
 
Thanks JImbothefiveth and ThreeFeathers!

I'd really like to get to an LFI course. It's been a long time. Back in the day, civies didn't usually walk around with "one in the chamber". As you pointed out JImbothefiveth, the guns are pretty safe now against accidental discharge, but 25 years ago, I was accidentally shot at TWICE!

Here's where this lefty feels he's headed ThreeFeathers;

I think I'm going wtih the Springfield XD 40 subcompact with a Crimson Trace in a DeSantis Pro Stealth IWB at my 3 o'clock for a cross draw, low profile, strong shoulder facing the opponent aspect -

As my back-up I'm thinking of the S&W 637 .38 revolver with Crimson Trace at 15oz or the Ruger LCP .380 with Crimson Trace at 10 oz - both pocket pistols.

I just bought the Ruger 10/22 Charger with bi-pod front legs and a BSA blue dot / krypton light / laser combo scope. What a fun gun to shoot! Amazingly accurate with that laser - 3 inch group of 10 from about 15 yards, shotgun hold, walk-up, advancing on target.
 
Armed N. Free,

I retired a few years ago after over 30 years in Federal and local law enforcement and was a firearms instructor most of that time. As far as your questions:

1. Always carry a round in the chamber. It's safe as previously stated.

2. The easiest holster to use is a strong side belt holster. With or without a safety strap is your call but I've used a DeSantis Speed Scabbard without for about 20 years. I'm not a fan of cross draw as it offers you gun to your opponent if you get into a less than lethal encounter. I sometimes use an ankle holster. The proper way to draw is wear it on your weak side ankle inside (protect the gun), kneel on your strong knee and draw. Shoot from the kneeling. Not a big fan of ankle holsters but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

3. You need to practice something about 300 times to learn it and repeat the motions 3-5K times before it becomes muscle memory. Practice your draw with an EMPTY GUN (caps for emphasis).

4. I am not a fan of lasers for common useage. If you have it your're probably going to use it, depend on it, and when you need it the batteries will be dead or it's not working for some other reason. Many people buy the laser as a crutch to poor marksmanship and depend on the laser and remain poor marksman. I don't want to bet my life on laser. That's my opinion.

You also have to understand you can damage someone's eyes with a laser even if you don't shoot. That could be a bystander.

5. strong shoulder facing the opponent aspect -


I'd say that's a bad tactic. If you carry strong side and put your weak side to the attacker you can fend them off (knife attack?) with your weak hand while your strong hand is drawing.
 
Thanks GRIZZ22,

All excellent points! These are the perspectives I needed. I only had an understanding of exposed side carry tactics being prior Law Enforcement. Now, with the new goal being "keep the gun completely out of sight, but present the weapon with the same speed as open carry if neccessary", I had a hard time figuring out how I was going to do that.

I prefer a belt holster, but I don't know how PA is on having the gun mostly out of sight vs. "invisible". Ankle carry makes sense to me but again drawing the weapon would feel quite foreign or akward.

I'm not a fan of cross draw as it offers you gun to your opponent if you get into a less than lethal encounter

I don't understand the problem with cross draw or how it would offer my gun to my opponent. I guess I need to watch some on-line videos.

I also need to find a range to practice at. I'll check with the gun shop when I fianlly decide on which pistol to buy. At one point, I was really into the PX4, but some folks said I don't want to mess with external safeties during a self defense encounter (which is why I was looking at the XDsc .40); other folks said they help with your legal defense if you actually have to fire at an attacker. In law enforcement, we always used .45's with external safeties (which is why I was looking at the PX4). These points are probably more appropriate for the legal fourums:confused:

I do carry mace on my belt for the non-firearms encounters.

Thanks again for all the excellent info!
 
GRIZ22,

Sorry, I got ditracted and didn't get to finish a thought (I have a very busy two year old!);

"4. I am not a fan of lasers for common useage. If you have it your're probably going to use it, depend on it, and when you need it the batteries will be dead or it's not working for some other reason. Many people buy the laser as a crutch to poor marksmanship and depend on the laser and remain poor marksman. I don't want to bet my life on laser. That's my opinion.

You also have to understand you can damage someone's eyes with a laser even if you don't shoot. That could be a bystander."

I 've heard about the eye issues, but I understood damage was only possible at a very close range. I guess it depends on the power / output of the laser? Again, my training really drilled in using as much non-lethal deterent as the situation allows. For non-crackheads, a verbal warning and a red dot on the chest would probably be enough deterent. For me, these lasers are just part of that. I like them as a back-up verification of good tageting for someone who has not yet become intimately comfortable / competent with a new gun. I wouldn't depend on them during marksman training (probably tape over the port so my finger would feel the button, but not get the bennefit of the dot for targeting).

Oh - duh - I was being dense about the external safety comments. I know the XD's have the tang and trigger safeties. I was referring to the ambi thumb safties like on the PX4-F or the .45ACP 1911's.
 
IMO, always carry with one in the chamber. When seconds count....(Echo)

When you are holstered for cross draw, a face to face assailant can more easily grab your gun than you (if he thinks it's there). Cross draw may be the only option for some, but I wouldn't if I could help it.

Also, you don't want to SOB (small of back) carry as you could fall on your firearm and hurt your back. Again, this is subjective, but it's a good argument IMO.

IMO, a good strong side IWB will cost around $100, but it will be fast, secure, comfortable and allow you to reholster your weapon without looking (it won't collapse when the gun is drawn).

What's a good choice? There's lots of them. Many carry 1911s, Glocks, XDs, Wheel guns, Kahrs..... Lots of choices. Just figure out what's best for you and practice.
 
Oh, I'll add....

I'm not a fan of lasers either. Spend time at the range (which you should be doing anyway) and you won't need it.

IMO, lasers can go dead, they cost money that could be better spent on practice, and they can give away your position. I'm not a fan, though some are.
 
I don't understand the problem with cross draw or how it would offer my gun to my opponent. I guess I need to watch some on-line videos.


BBQLS1 answered your question in a different way.

When you are holstered for cross draw, a face to face assailant can more easily grab your gun than you (if he thinks it's there). Cross draw may be the only option for some, but I wouldn't if I could help it.


For non-crackheads, a verbal warning and a red dot on the chest would probably be enough deterent.

Keep in mind you use your firearm when you are in fear of your life or serious bodily harm. If some guy threatens to kick your butt and you're not in a wheelchair or seriously disabled, you can easily become the bad guy if you lase his chest.

You should look for some place that gives you legal training regarding your use of firearms and use of force.
 
Thanks GRIZ22

"Keep in mind you use your firearm when you are in fear of your life or serious bodily harm. If some guy threatens to kick your butt and you're not in a wheelchair or seriously disabled, you can easily become the bad guy if you lase his chest.

You should look for some place that gives you legal training regarding your use of firearms and use of force."

Excellent advice again! Thank you! The only use of force training I've had was LE 25 years ago - Modesto, CA "shoot / don't shoot" and tactical. I'm getting in touch with a guy about 30 minutes north of here that will put me through a safety / legal course and get me permitted to CC in Ohio (non-recip with PA CC permit, but Ohio does recip with UT). I'm also joining a local pistol club where all my local police, sheriffs and state police shoot.

Also, because of much excellent tactical advise here, I've given up on the PX4-F .40 and have ordered the smaller Sprinfield XD .40 subcompact with it's two external safeties. With the standard clip, the gun fits very nicely in my left front jeans pocet. Sure, it prints a little, but so does my wallet which my chiroprator has told me to always carry in my from pocet:D

I talked with our local sheriffs this morning and they advised me the gun must be totally out of sight - no grips, holsters or anything visible. They said pocket carry, belly band and non-visible ankle carry were fine, otherwise it had to be inside a closed jacket or buttoned shirt. I figured the quickest and safest draw would be front my strong side jeans pocket.

Thanks again everyone - I think I'm off to a good start. You've all been very decent about my inexperience in this area and have offered a lot of excellent and helpful info from your very valuable experience!

I've recommended THR to several people who were unaware of this forum but were looking for good RKBA and Gun use info.
 
I pocket carry at times for convenience, but it's not faster than an IWB on your strong side.

You will want a pocket holster for pocket carry though.

You also DO NOT want it to print. You are asking for trouble with the local PD and interpretation with the law. You are also advertising yourself as the first target if things should ever go the wrong way.
 
Armed N. Free said:
I talked with our local sheriffs this morning and they advised me the gun must be totally out of sight - no grips, holsters or anything visible. They said pocket carry, belly band and non-visible ankle carry were fine, otherwise it had to be inside a closed jacket or buttoned shirt. I figured the quickest and safest draw would be front my strong side jeans pocket.
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Which Sheriff's Office did you speak with? They're giving out incorrect advice on PA's law.

Pennsylvania has legal, unlicensed open carry, except in a city of the first class. The only first class city PA has is Philadelphia, in which case you need a License to carry either openly or concealed. Other than in Philadelphia, the License to Carry is only required in PA when you carry concealed, transport a loaded handgun in a vehicle, or to carry (openly or concealed) under a declared state of emergency.


If you "print", have your holster exposed, or otherwise have any portion of the gun come out of concealment, you should expect an Officer may ask you to show your license. But it is not a crime in PA to "print", have an exposed holster, allow your concealment garment expose the handgun, or even openly carry.


My advice to you is to not rest upon the Sheriff's Office for legal advice. They're not lawyers. And they don't know the law well enough if that's the advice they gave you.


My other piece of advice is to look to places to get training focused around the Armed Citizen, and break out of that LE training circle. The Pittsburgh area has a good facility just west of the city:

Forest Grove Sportsmen’s Association, Inc. in Coraopolis, PA


They host John Farnam throughout the year. More info about John and DTI can be found here: http://www.defense-training.com/ He's got a great program, and is a legend in the training community, having pioneered the concept of the itinerant firearms trainer. The POC I have for him when he comes through Pittsburgh is below.


Ray Schuerger
Coordinator, DTI-Pgh
4211 Steubenville Pike
Pittsburgh PA 15205
412-921-1474


Back to your original question. What you're discussing is how to create the time you need to draw. Alertness, decisiveness, and some really basic tactics will help you create the time you need. Get into John's next class, and you'll learn some answers to your dilemna.
 
I also need to find a range to practice at.
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Get an airsoft or BB gun, you can shoot at home until you do find one. You can also get a pellet gun, if you don't mind lead in the house.

Someone with more experiance in airguns could reccomend a good one.

And, you can dry-fire, it's really good practice, just use snap caps.
 
I wouldn't jump too quickly to an IWB holster ............. at least not until you've tried a good OWB with a good gun belt.

Cheap OWB (Fobus, Uncle Mike, et al) usually do a poor job of holding the weapon snugly against your body. Same thing happens with flimsy, cheap belts. Try a Comp-Tac OWB ....... if you don't like it, they will take it back and refund your money. Experiment with different positions on your belt - most folks end up with ~4 o'clock to maybe 5:30.

Try a belt from the Belt Man, or maybe a Wilderness Instructor belt. Both are good ...... the Belt Man's is far better (to me).

In the summer you need a fairly loose shirt that you can wear with the shirttail out .....think Hawaiian shirts or camp shirts with a pattern. Loose T-shirts will usually do well too, if they are dark colored. In spring, fall & winter wear a cover garment (coat, windbreaker, vest, etc).

I wear a Glock 19 24/7 OWB at 4:30 with the holster and belts noted above. Students in my classes cannot detect any sign of the weapon, even when they know where I have it on my belt.

1. You have to dress around the gun.

2. Your body shape may preclude an option that world well for somebody else. So experiment.

3. But ideally you will settle on a carry mode that you can use year round - so the weapon is always in the same spot if you need it, and you can instinctive reach for it without a lot of fumbling.

4. Don't yield to the temptation to carry a tiny gun just because it's easy to conceal. Tiny guns are harder to shoot, do not lend themselves to any sort of intense practice, and don't carry many rounds.

5. When you settle on a carry location and mode, PRACTICE. If you can't readily access the weapon and quickly bring it to bear on a target, you need to re-examine your plan.
 
I can't can't figure out a concealed response to the "10 feet - 3 seconds - someone loses" scenario.
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Don't stand still. Some have described the goal as "getting off the X", getting off of the line of force, or whatever you want to call it. The idea is, standing there and hoping you can draw fast enough to drop the person who's running at you from 10 feet away is not a good survival strategy.

Some good advice all through this thread, not just in the OP:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=213157
 
I'm looking at...a Springfield XDsc 40...all with Crimson Trace or equivallent.
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'Scuse me while I butt in...:D (or just tell me to take a flying leap)!

FWIW, one of my main CCW is an XDSC40 with a LaserMax laser. A few points to consider?
Recoil on the XDSC doesn't bother me, but I think it's got a bit more muzzle flip than I'd like. I've never fired a 9mm XDSC, but if you get a chance, might want to compare for muzzle flip if you'd consider a 9mm?

The activation switch on my LaserMax (don't know if that's one of your choices) on my XDSC needs to be a little more crisp in it's activation and/or needs a slightly longer activation pin? Been meaning to contact LaserMax to see if anything can be done about it (perhaps try a new takedown lever/activation pin).
I have a LaserMax on my P229R and it's crisp and definitive in it's activation-the one on my XDSC is a bit mushy and you have to give it a good push to activate.

Just something to watch for should you go for the Crimson Trace "equivalent"?
 
Wow! This forum is amazing! My son's even noticed the tone of the posts compared to other forums we've been on - you all are so respectuful and helpful, even if your opinions differ from one another!

I went to the Lawrence County Sheriff's Office in New Castle, PA. for their "slant" on CC since they are the one's I will initially encounter the most often when carrying around town.

I'm going to call about that DTI course in Pittsburgh. Thanks BullfrogKen!

It will be a month or so before I can get to the local range so I need to know - what are "snap caps", where can I get them and how do I use them? Are they like dummy rounds?

The most recent posts have me thinking about my choice of gun again. I really like the feel of a full framed auto loader (ie 1911). I like the 45ACP rounds. But, I can think of my times when I'd (by choice) like to have the gun up front but out of sight. The XDsc 40 still feels pretty good and it fits really nicely in my jeans pocket. I think it will feel better once I become as familiar with it as I am with the 1911.

So, today I ordered the XDsc 40 with the standard clip, an extended clip and a free holster of my choice. I'm also fitting it with a grip mounted Crimson Trace. I just thought I'd better make a choice so can get the gun and start training with it so I can get comfortable enough to carry it sooner than later.
 
I wouldn't jump too quickly to an IWB holster ............. at least not until you've tried a good OWB with a good gun belt.
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I use both and agree that there is a good bit to like about OWB, but IMO IWB is just more versatile. If I was going to get only one (my first one), it would be IWB.

Still, the OP just needs to look at a few options.
 
Hello Everyone

I would echo most of what Dawg23 has written above.

I would encourage Armed N. Free and others in a similar situation to make an objective evaluation of the threat level they face and the scenarios they consider realistic. Outside law enforcement most of us do not seek out trouble or move deliberately into dangerous situations; we do not close with people known to be dangerous.

Much depends on the degree of concealment you require. I carry a Glock 27 OWB when I am out and about. A sport coat or sweater, or an unbuttoned shirt over a colored t-shirt covers it. Most people can't tell but some are more observant and given enough time over the course of days or weeks they will figure it out.

Sometimes situations call for a deeper level of concealment, and guns such as the Ruger LCP or the Kel Tec P3AT in a pocket holster make a better choice. I like the Kel Tec; some people can't stand it and if you have the cash there is Seecamp, Rohrbaugh, and the NAA Guardian. Obviously the ballistics of the .380 are not as good as the .40 S&W but they are passable (no worse than the .38 spl snubbie that was common for years) and if you're in a situation where being made would have adverse social consequences that may be the best you can do.

I have not been able to learn to draw quickly from a pocket holster but I'm told it can be done especially with pants designed for it. You may have to do some experimenting and might want to consider the "tactical pants" that are out there, designed with larger front pockets for the purpose.

The other difference, without a badge, you really don't want to intervene, ever, in somebody else's fight, aside from extremely rare scenarios. Without the financial backing of a city or county or other jurisdiction, and the benefit of the doubt given to LE, it's only the one-in-a-million situations where you'd pull a gun if there was no direct threat to you.
 
Threefeathers: Not so much lazy as Kind of clueless computer searching wise. Would you happen to have web addys for those holsters? Thanks.
 
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