CGRifleman
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Given the popularity of the M1 Garand, why are there no new production versions of it? I know Losok makes a mag-fed sniper/DMR variant, but why does no one make a "classic" version?
New Production M1?
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Murphy4570
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Expense of manufacture in relation to the price point the market will support. They are a 1930's design, with expensive time consuming machining required to manufacture. That would heavily affect the price. Expect one to cost as much as what the Springfield M1A goes for.
The market for them is not terribly large either.
The market for them is not terribly large either.
Jackal
Member
Not to mention that new production would likely use cast receivers, whereas USGI are forged.
dmazur
Member
Springfield Armory, Inc. (not WWII-era Springfield Armory) did offer a modern production M1 Garand. I believe they made both standard and NM versions.
I'm not sure where they got all the receivers, but I believe they were cast, not machined. My NM version has a cast receiver made by Lithgow in Australia. I have had no trouble with it, but I understand that is not always the case with cast M1 receivers.
I have no details as to why Springfield Armory continued with the M1A and ceased M1 production, but I would guess the availability of M1's from CMP may have had something to do with it...
I'm not sure where they got all the receivers, but I believe they were cast, not machined. My NM version has a cast receiver made by Lithgow in Australia. I have had no trouble with it, but I understand that is not always the case with cast M1 receivers.
I have no details as to why Springfield Armory continued with the M1A and ceased M1 production, but I would guess the availability of M1's from CMP may have had something to do with it...
Welding Rod
Member
Currently I don't see how it would be feasible to compete with CMP. CMP can deliver the authentic military grade rifle cheaper than a repro (that would likely not be built to equivalent quality standards) would likely need to cost.
I believe the SA Inc repros were a grand or so something like 20 years ago.
Once CMP supplies dry up, which may not be long, I expect GI rifle prices to jump considerably. Then a repro may be feasible again. However, with so many 1,000s of CMP guns hitting the street at an excellent price for years now, many who want one have one, or three.
It may take a couple decades for demand to build up again, and in those decades further urbanization may suppress the shooting culture more... IMO urbanization is the biggest threat to gun ownership in general.
I believe the SA Inc repros were a grand or so something like 20 years ago.
Once CMP supplies dry up, which may not be long, I expect GI rifle prices to jump considerably. Then a repro may be feasible again. However, with so many 1,000s of CMP guns hitting the street at an excellent price for years now, many who want one have one, or three.
It may take a couple decades for demand to build up again, and in those decades further urbanization may suppress the shooting culture more... IMO urbanization is the biggest threat to gun ownership in general.
SilentScream
Member
As long as the heat treat is done properly, a cast receiver is every bit as good as a forged receiver. Remember boys and girls steel, and steel alloys as well as heat treat procedures has come a long, long way since 1936.
P5 Guy
Member
M1 Rifles
The same people that make the XD at one time offered M1 Rifles for MSRP of $995 if memory serves me. These rifles were made with new cast receivers and commercial barrels and stocks. Every other part was a refinished military part. Some of theses rifles had functioning issues because the milsurp parts were out of spec?
At the same time the company in IL was offering these "reproduction rifles" the CMP was selling their rifles for about half the price. Yes the CMP was not manufacturing or refinishing any of those rifles at that time. About 10 years ago.
The same people that make the XD at one time offered M1 Rifles for MSRP of $995 if memory serves me. These rifles were made with new cast receivers and commercial barrels and stocks. Every other part was a refinished military part. Some of theses rifles had functioning issues because the milsurp parts were out of spec?
At the same time the company in IL was offering these "reproduction rifles" the CMP was selling their rifles for about half the price. Yes the CMP was not manufacturing or refinishing any of those rifles at that time. About 10 years ago.
critter
Member
I have one of the Springfield 'repro's'. They are REALLY nice firearms.
Jackal
Member
Correctly forged/heat treated receivers will always be superior to cast, regardless the processes the cast goes through. The Garand receiver life is supposedly somewhere in the realm of 400,000 rounds or roughly $240,000 in 30-06. The life of a cast one is supposedly in the region of 250,000 rounds. Do I plan on shooting that much? No (though it would be nice
). Does it show superiority? Yes. When something does the same thing just as well, but lasts longer, its simply better. Besides, all the newer Springfields lack the "soul" of an original USGI.
). Does it show superiority? Yes. When something does the same thing just as well, but lasts longer, its simply better. Besides, all the newer Springfields lack the "soul" of an original USGI.Welding Rod
Member
The serrations in the receiver for the rear sight elevation adustments seem to go long before anything else in the receiver. I wonder how good or poorly these would hold up in a cast receiver?
My father in law has a SAI M1... It is a nice gun.
My father in law has a SAI M1... It is a nice gun.
Jim Watson
Member
With Our Leader blocking return of rifles already paid for by the American taxpayer, prices will likely increase until it becomes profitable for SA to resume building copies.
Consider the AO/Kahr Carbine as an example of the process.
Consider the AO/Kahr Carbine as an example of the process.
If you want to get a "new" Garand, just get a Special Grade Garand from the CMP.
http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/m1garand.htm
Per the CMP's description:
Though the receiver and some small parts are original, the barrels and stocks are brand new (and of very high quality) and all the original parts are refinished. I've seen some of these Special Grade rifles, and they look like brand new rifles. Absolutely beautiful. And thanks to the original Springfield receivers, they have a little bit of history too. As long as the CMP is offering these, it would be pretty much pointless for anyone else to try to offer newly-manufactured Grands.
http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/m1garand.htm
Per the CMP's description:
Though the receiver and some small parts are original, the barrels and stocks are brand new (and of very high quality) and all the original parts are refinished. I've seen some of these Special Grade rifles, and they look like brand new rifles. Absolutely beautiful. And thanks to the original Springfield receivers, they have a little bit of history too. As long as the CMP is offering these, it would be pretty much pointless for anyone else to try to offer newly-manufactured Grands.
Welding Rod
Member
If you want a "new" Garand IMO the best available at CMP is the service grade special. The special (different than a service grade special which is different than a service grade) is or may contain at least some refinished used parts, the service grade special is essentially new unused parts.
The sgs may have handling marks (scratches) in the finish from being handled but the actual wear condition of the parts is very close to new. The special might LOOK more like a new rifle due to the fresh remark job, but the parts are likely to have seen considerable service. Some special parts may be in down right piss poor condition - though CMP will stand behind the sale when this is the case. You could not ask for better service in this regard and you can buy from CMP with complete confidence that they are a stand up outfit.
I have owned 4 specials and 4 sg specials. The sg specials have been without a doubt the better condition / like new rifles. I had to request and/or replace quite a few parts on my specials. Plus special recievers may show worn or even considerably worn rear sight elevation serrations. A couple of mine did. Not much you can do about that short of ask for a new gun. I had a nice WWII production numbered receiver on one of my specials and the whole rifle had to be swapped out due to a significant reciever problem that prohibited proper cycling.
All that said, the new Criterion barrel on the special is sweet, and SOME of the specials are very nice guns. I am using a couple of specials for my current high power match rifles.
I have been to North Store at Camp Perry and handled quite a few guns there. Personally I wouldn't consider a special again until all the sg specials are sold out. After that I would really prefer to hand pick a special at the store after a thorough examination.
The sgs may have handling marks (scratches) in the finish from being handled but the actual wear condition of the parts is very close to new. The special might LOOK more like a new rifle due to the fresh remark job, but the parts are likely to have seen considerable service. Some special parts may be in down right piss poor condition - though CMP will stand behind the sale when this is the case. You could not ask for better service in this regard and you can buy from CMP with complete confidence that they are a stand up outfit.
I have owned 4 specials and 4 sg specials. The sg specials have been without a doubt the better condition / like new rifles. I had to request and/or replace quite a few parts on my specials. Plus special recievers may show worn or even considerably worn rear sight elevation serrations. A couple of mine did. Not much you can do about that short of ask for a new gun. I had a nice WWII production numbered receiver on one of my specials and the whole rifle had to be swapped out due to a significant reciever problem that prohibited proper cycling.
All that said, the new Criterion barrel on the special is sweet, and SOME of the specials are very nice guns. I am using a couple of specials for my current high power match rifles.
I have been to North Store at Camp Perry and handled quite a few guns there. Personally I wouldn't consider a special again until all the sg specials are sold out. After that I would really prefer to hand pick a special at the store after a thorough examination.
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I would not consider them a good example as only superficially similar. There are internal differences between the two.
Jim Watson
Member
I did not mean mechanical similarity.
I meant (and said) the process, meaning that as the CMP sold out of carbines, they soon started trading at higher prices under market pressure. After a while, the selling price of a good carbine got high enough that it was worth Kahr's while to tool up and start making new ones.
I think the same thing will happen with Garands. The last large supply of them is being cut off by a Community Organizer who thinks crooks like nine pound infantry rifles.
The CMP will run out, prices will go up, and SA will start building them again. They already have the plans and tooling, having sold them before. I recall the American Rifleman report on one. They said it shot OK, but would not have passed Army Ordnance inspection. It had a quarter inch knot in the handguard.
I meant (and said) the process, meaning that as the CMP sold out of carbines, they soon started trading at higher prices under market pressure. After a while, the selling price of a good carbine got high enough that it was worth Kahr's while to tool up and start making new ones.
I think the same thing will happen with Garands. The last large supply of them is being cut off by a Community Organizer who thinks crooks like nine pound infantry rifles.
The CMP will run out, prices will go up, and SA will start building them again. They already have the plans and tooling, having sold them before. I recall the American Rifleman report on one. They said it shot OK, but would not have passed Army Ordnance inspection. It had a quarter inch knot in the handguard.
briansmithwins
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The Garand's receiver, bolt, extractor, and several other parts were designed to be forged and then machined. Cast steel has different mechanical properties than steel forgings.
Can perfectly fine, durable firearms be manufactured using castings? Sure, Ruger is a fine example. But Ruger's firearms were designed to be made using casting.
BSW
Can perfectly fine, durable firearms be manufactured using castings? Sure, Ruger is a fine example. But Ruger's firearms were designed to be made using casting.
BSW
Deer_Freak
Member.
Might this be what you are looking for?
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_41/products_id/11811
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_41/products_id/11811
kBob
Member
In the way back (even before SA) there was a company called National Odanance that tried to market new made M-1 RIfles. Springfield '03s and M-1 Carbines. Many said they did a poor job and they were all more expensive than surplus back in the day.
SA Garands while new had trouble competing with surplus even during the time they came out and DCM (pre CMP) guns were once in a lifetime purchases so few were available used.
My understanding was that production of M-1 rifles in WWII facilities cost about $87 in 1945 dollars. Try bring that figure to 2013 Dollars and it may become apparent why no one is dashing out to make M-1s today.
-kBob
SA Garands while new had trouble competing with surplus even during the time they came out and DCM (pre CMP) guns were once in a lifetime purchases so few were available used.
My understanding was that production of M-1 rifles in WWII facilities cost about $87 in 1945 dollars. Try bring that figure to 2013 Dollars and it may become apparent why no one is dashing out to make M-1s today.
-kBob
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