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New rattlesnake vaccine for our 4-legged friends

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Greybeard, Apr 29, 2005.

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  1. Greybeard

    Greybeard Member

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    If not known already, figured that some of you guys and gals might have interest in some of this ...

    http://www.webcanine.com/health.htm#snake

    http://www.placervillevet.com/rattlesnake_vaccine.htm

    http://espn.go.com/outdoors/sportin...en/2030630.html

    http://americanwaterfowlers.com/for...php/t-6920.html (a vet there with somewhat of a "wait and see" posture)

    We are in the process of adopting "Lola", about a 1 to 2 year old German Shorthair Pointer. The lady I'm getting her from, when told about recent rattlesnake encounter while scouting new lease, told me about this stuff. Gonna discuss it with vet shortly ...

    Anyone out there had your dog vaccinated with this stuff yet?
     
  2. DigMe

    DigMe Member

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    My parents just take their dogs to this guy in Austin who does snake training. He uses a defanged rattlesnake and a shock collar to create a reaction negative reaction to getting near the snake. THe dogs go back periodically to make sure they still have the negative reaction. They do.

    Then again it's always possible that the dogs might get bit before they see the snake.

    brad cook
     
  3. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    Ditto on the snake training I do the same with my dogs.

    I just showed these web sites to my wife who is a DVM. Her first impression is that this is probably not a good idea due to the type of vaccine that it is and that it causes hypersensitvity to anti venom. But said she'll look into it.

    Greg
     
  4. Buzztail

    Buzztail Member

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    I mean no disrespect, but you cannot "defang" a rattlesnake.
    You can devenomize one by removing the Duvernoy's gland, or make one somewhat inert by cutting the venom duct that runs from the Duvernoy's gland to the fangs.
    By breaking or removing the fangs you do not make the snake safe to handle. The fangs grow back quite quickly, and the animal still produces venom without them.
     
  5. St. Gunner

    St. Gunner Member

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    Buzztail,

    Most of the guys I have seen either use a cage or a they pull the fangs that morning. Some of them use electrical tape to keep the snake from opening its mouth.

    Dad's been training bird dogs for 30+ years now and one thing he does not advocate is the way some guys snake train. If you do it the snake needs to be in an open easily seen space and not tucked into a bush like some guys do. Young dogs without much hunting experience often begin to fear bushes. He got one in to attempt to correct this and it was nearly impossible.

    Bird dogs seem to be more into messing with snakes, but a buddy does have a Plott Hound/ Pitbull cross that is a rattlesnake finding fool. If you find Boudroux and he is simply staring at the ground in front of him, he's got a rattlesnake there someplace. He never presses the attack, instead just looks at the dang thing.

    I haven't done the vaccine for one simply reason, it says it isn't effective if the dog is hit in the sinus cavity. Almost every snake bite I have seen on dogs has been to the head area. Normally because the dog is messing with the snake. We carry a couple viles of cortisone with us and if a dog gets hit, shoot the bottle straight into a vein. Alot of times the dog is up and around like nothing is wrong the next day. Finally got the vet to send some with us when we got a dog bit Sat. night late and she wouldn't answer the emergency call. She was the only vet in the area that said she was on call 24hrs. So Monday I walked him in right by all the other patients and asked some pretty hard questions.

    If you are going to put dogs in the woods you need to get some cortisone, it helps keep the swelling down so you don' t damage as much tissue.
     
  6. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Even pulling the fangs that morning is not a guarantee.

    The snake still has venom and still has other teeth. The venom may not get injected as deeply as it would from the fangs, but if the other teeth break the skin and the venom gets into the wound it's still going to be plenty unpleasant.

    The electrical tape or a cage sounds like a much better bet.
     
  7. Buzztail

    Buzztail Member

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    Be careful guys. I keep and breed these things, and know exactly what they can do.
     
  8. SCG4141

    SCG4141 Member

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    snake training

    I had my black lab snake trained for the first time at 1yr old. The snake trainer has been doing it for many years and the snakes he uses have all of the fangs removed. I believe he said there are six total and you have about 12-24 hrs before you are in any danger of the fangs re-growing that fast. I plan to go back at the beginning of August to have it done again. Its amazing how many of the "veteran" dogs knew exactly what was going on and made it difficult to get them out of the trucks. Ive seen the affects of a dog losing an eye because of a snake and I am very confident in this guy's ability to save my dog and my own life. I didn't know that venom is still capable of penetrating a dog without fangs. I'll have to ask my guy the next time.
     
  9. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Rattlesnake aversion training looks great, until your dog does it, appears to be "trained" and still has no "aversion" to a big rattlesnake in the field. Maybe she just didn't notice it.:rolleyes: She might have noticed when it made that distinctive rattling sound, but nope.

    Seemed curious about kingsnakes, and whatever else she saw, too, after that. Didn't seem to have any aversion to snakes in general.

    We started getting the vaccine a bit over a year ago.

    Haven't gone back for aversion training.

    I'll still carry snake shot if and where it's legal, and I keep my eyes open one way or another, just like always.
     
  10. buzz meeks

    buzz meeks Member

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    My experience is similar to ArmedBear's. My Brittany has been through two snake break clinics and she continues to run right over the top of milk and garter snakes. However, when she hears a rattle snake buzzing, the influence of her training is obvious. She sprints to safety. In one case that meant I had to trail her back to the truck three miles away. I was ticked off and the dog was too tired to hunt afterwards but she was safe and I was grateful.

    Coupled with the vaccine, it's about as good as it gets. Neither is expensive. Both are highly recommended.
     
  11. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    Interesting.

    I don't think our dog responded to the buzzing, either. Of course, a bull-and-terrier breed has a very different temperament from a spaniel. Ditto for herding dogs. They're bred to respond to fear by approaching, not retreating.

    Maybe I'll try the aversion training on our Vizsla.
     
  12. buenhec

    buenhec Member

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    I had my dog trained a few months ago. Now she wont get within 15 of a snake or where its been. Check out the cool video I took of a dog getting trained that day.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdy3JrV8Rv0
     
  13. ChefJeff1

    ChefJeff1 Member

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    a few weks ago I encountered a rattlesnake with my dogs and perforated it with 5x 38 special. The next day they got vaccinated and in a week a booster shot. training and vaccine would be the best.
     
  14. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    buenhec-

    What the dogs do on training day is one thing. What they do in the field is another. I'm not totally convinced.

    Just ran up on a decent-seized rattler on a trail yesterday.

    Dog paid no attention to it whatsoever, despite her rattlesnake training. Would have jogged right over it, probably.

    I have no idea what she'd do if it were coiled up and rattling, though. Maybe that would scare her off; maybe she'd attack it like she did the first one she encountered in training. Hard to know for sure without serious risk to the dog.

    Vaccine comes first, IMO. Training can't hurt.
     
  15. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    Rattlesnake vaccines are not full proof. We have had a dog die from the vaccine reaction in our clinic.

    There is not empirical data to suggest positive improvement in survivability with a vaccinated dog. Most dogs survive an envenomation without the vaccine and many snake bites are dry bites I.E. no venom is injected.

    I am neither for nor against the vaccine I am only suggesting that it should not be considered as a full proof protection against snake bites.

    My dog who got bit in Texas last week has been through snake avoidance training and did well there. Put him out in the field and he is a totally different critter.
     
  16. JWarren

    JWarren Member

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    I'll be talking to my Vet about this for my two Jack Russell Terriers. We live in a rural area, and while my pups are house dogs, they are out with me a lot.

    In addition, my dogs are idiots, like most JRTs-- high candidates for snake bites.


    While I know that many snakebites are not fatal for dogs, I can't shake out of my head how a Chow I had died. He went out in a field and got hit literally in the face with a rattlesnake. I could see that the Chow dragged himself about 5 feet before he passed away. I can't imagine how I'd handle that happening to one of the girls.

    Still, I am worried about the vaccination risks. I saw that it can be fatal. What is the fatality rate, and if I were to keep the dogs with the vet, would there be something that could be done if a reaction occured?

    I gotta get some more information on this one.


    -- John
     
  17. Sherrie

    Sherrie Member

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    I know this is late but maybe will inform someone else just looking. I have used this vaccine and I will never use it again. In just the ast month I have had 3 people email me with problems after this vaccine. Call Davis vet clinic and ask what THEY think of it. Please check out my dogs page before you use this stuff.
    http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/vaccinesurvivors9.html
     
  18. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    My wife has had several dogs die from the Rattlesnake vaccine and do not use it in our clinic anymore.
     
  19. Harve Curry

    Harve Curry Member

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    I tried training my dog with the shock collar, a headless rattler on a fishing line, and watch the dog with someone out of sight with the controller for the collar. I don't know if it worked but they are out alot and have'nt been bit.
    Other then that I send all rattlers back to their maker.
     
  20. EricTheBarbarian

    EricTheBarbarian Member

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    Do they have a rattlesnake vaccine for people, or will it work on people?
     
  21. CSA 357

    CSA 357 Member

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    I have had dogs get bit, they all made it ok, some were sicker than others, the ones that were bit in the neck head area had a hard time, i think the key here is to not get bit csa
     
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