New Remarms 700 production?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Southmountain, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. Southmountain

    Southmountain Member

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    I’m seeing large numbers of new Remington 700 BDL’s and CDL’s appear recently on GB and other large retailer websites, given this sudden influx I’m assuming these are the new Remarms production.

    Has anyone handled these new BDL or CDL’s? Would love to hear thoughts on how their fit and finish are; how do they compare to current production Winchester Model 70 Featherweights? Super grades? Or vintage former production wood stocked ADL/BDL/CDL’s?

    (If I buy it would likely have to be online so appreciate any insights. Thanks in advance).
     
  2. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Member

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    The Model 70 was always a better rifle to me (even the post 64 models) if for nothing else they had genuine safety. I would get the Winchester just for that reason.
     
  3. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I haven't seen the new ones. But looking online they don't offer many options for cartridges in any of them. Especially the wood stocked versions and the options they do offer are no longer in the top 10 cartridges sold. Their choice of available cartridges seems to be handicapping them if they want to sell rifles.

    I've owned more 700's than any other rifle over the years, but I'm done with them. Even if the quality is top notch the basic action was designed right after WW-2 and was intended as a budget rifle at the time. They cut a lot of corners to make a cheap, highly profitable rifle. Then later upgraded to a fancy stock and highly polished metal in order to make it look like a quality rifle. They sold a lot of them, but McDonalds sells more hamburgers than anyone else. No one ever claimed McDonalds had the best burger.

    Since 1946 there are better designed rifles without the baggage. Remington circled the drain for 40 years before finally going under. Just because they are back in production for now doesn't lead me to believe they will still be around in another 10 years. Their choice in cartridges, and still riding the ancient BDL stock design tells me they are trying to build rifles that would have sold well in 1972, not 2022. If someone wants a rifle that looks like a 1970's vintage rifle, there are millions of used ones out there.

    If I had to have walnut/blue in a classic rifle the Winchester 70 would be at the top of my list. It took me a while to figure it out, but the 70 is a better design in every way. Although there was a time when it was not well executed by Winchester. I'd avoid any of them from the 1960's and 1970's. And those from about 2000-2006. But anything from the 1980's-2000 are solid rifles as are those made after 2008-present.
     
  4. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I'm keeping an eye out, but my hopes aren't real high.

    I really enjoy my one 700 (and am awaiting delivery of a 700-ish rifle), but they could have used this as an opportunity to bring the design up to date a little.
     
  5. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    The last two I bought were very accurate like every Remington 700 and 788 I have owned. But that was before the new owners. Since nearly every top target rifle is based on or a clone of the Remington 700 I would think that if the quality is there they will be great shooters. I am now a Tikka fan though. Most modern rifles are more accurate than older rifles but maybe not as pretty. I buy them to shoot.
     
  6. upptick

    upptick Member

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    Indeed, Remington is history in more ways than one and anyone who is buying from the new RemArms company is just not well-informed. If I really wanted a model 700, I think Bergara would be the ticket....

    How do you think the Browning X-Bolt compares to the Model 70? Aren't they made by the same company and produced in the same factories?
     
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  7. upptick

    upptick Member

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    RemArms is the new company that is using the Remington trademark. The new company refuses to honor the previous company's warranty repairs, despite trying to claim the good will of the Remington name. That should be enough to dissuade anyone from doing business with them. If you really want a model 700, check out Bergara which produces a high quality clone of the classic m700.
     
  8. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Mike Walker designed a very safe and strong M722 action, which with improvements, turned into the M700

    2DwvsaL.jpg

    There are people who are careless, slothful, and by nature prone to errors which cause accidents, and the Remington action has saved their eyes, hands, from the consequences of their stupidity.

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    I do not want to denigrate the M700, it is a fundamentally sound action, though the older triggers have gummed up and accidentally discharged. And from the very beginning of production, people have been injured and killed when the old trigger malfunctioned. The old trigger mechanism not only held the sear, but locked the bolt down, so if you wanted to empty the chamber you had to take the safety off. If the trigger was defective the sear released the firing pin, and bang went the round in the chamber.

    I actually prefer the M70. The safety happens to hold the firing pin back, which is a much safer and reliable safety. Sear blocking safeties, such on M700's, and striker fired pistols, just give me the willies, and the number of accidental discharges with the things help me maintain a high level of anxiety. The old tang safety M77 Rugers were nothing more than sear blocking safeties, and I noticed on the latest Ruger M77, the safety positively blocks the firing pin.

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    I much preferred the old M70 trigger mechanism. While I also do not like over ride triggers, as I consider them mechanically unstable and always on the edge of failing, of the factory over ride triggers, the old M70 trigger was the best. It was hard to gum up, unlike trigger mechanisms in housing, garbage falls off the parts. It was also hard to jar off.

    As long as you press the round in the magazine box, a claw extractor will last forever. Rem M700 extractors, like all push feed extractors, wear. Early Ruger M77 rifles looked like controlled round feed actions, but actually, they were push feed.

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    Eventually the tang safety M77 extractor will break, because it has to snap over the rim of a cartridge. And I don't know where you can get new, replacement extractors.

    MxqsuwU.jpg

    This issue was fixed in later Ruger M77's.

    the FN built M70 actions have improved gas blocking. Older M70's had a gap between bolt shroud and the left rail which allowed gas to go right into the shooter's face. The current FN built M70's, the shroud is extended to block gas release on the left receiver rail.

    AhKk9IV.jpg

    I like the M70 extractor, I can open the bolt and have the round eject into my hand. The Rem M700, that case is ejected off the bench, and I always lose cases.

    It is much easier to take the firing pin out of a M70, and wipe and clean the insides of the bolt and outside of the firing pin. If you pierce a primer, a lot of junk gets inside the bolt, and I like the easy access I get with M70's.

    I will say my M70 is a very smooth and slick action, the M700 is also. So it is six of one, half dozen of another. But I prefer M70's.


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  9. upptick

    upptick Member

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    This was the issue -- accidental discharges being caused by slack maintenance of a questionable trigger / safety design -- that ultimately bankrupted Remington. The trickle of mishaps became a torrent and the company just couldn't survive it.
     
  10. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    Currently, I'm hesitant to invest in a new rifle from Remington.

    I bought two Remington 700's (221 Remington Fireball and 17 Remington) and a Remington XR-100 (223 Remington) in the mid 2000's.

    All three were not bad, reasonable well made, and shot ok. An installation of an aftermarket trigger improved accuracy as well as some accuracy tweaks to the stocks.

    After my improvements, you won't be able to pry them from "my cold, dead hands".

    I have a Savage 12FV chambered in 204 Ruger and it produces small groups without any modifications to the rifle.

    While I do not think the Remington 700 action is junk, it does not have the performance out of the factory as it had in the early days.
     
  11. Turkeytider

    Turkeytider Member

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    While a contributing factor no doubt, the demise of Remington was a far more complex and sordid story.
     
  12. DM~

    DM~ Member

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    I started out as a M-70 man, reading all that pre64 "stuff". Then I bought a Rem.700 and what an improvement!

    Over the years I've had many different actions, Ruger, Sauer, Wby., and others, but in the end the 700's stayed, and when I got heavy into hunting brown bear, I built my rifle using a 700 action. I still have it today and it still works perfectly. I still think I made a wise choice, and although I haven't seen/used todays 700's, I would at least give them a look.

    BTW, in all the years since I bought my first 700 in the 1970's, I've never had a 700 trigger do something it wasn't supposed to do, not even one time!

    DM
     
  13. mcb

    mcb Member

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    You cannot point to one thing that killed Remington, there were lots of reasons. Not innovating when needed, not standing behind the innovations they did do, the two difference trigger lawsuits (despite the law suits the Marines still use a variant of the original Walker trigger), the Sandy Hook lawsuit and a few lesser know similar lawsuits. IMHO mostly it was due to poor managment, in the last 6 years of Remington's existence the company has 4 different CEO.

    My normal reply to a Rem Arms LLC thread, "Roll up a $100 bill and put it in the chamber of a Rem Arms LLC firearm and I would not give you $80 for it."

    For me personally this is more about the people in charge than the products coming out of the door. The CEO of Remington Outdoor company, Ken D'Arcy, drove the original Remington into its second bankruptcy (after inheriting the company from the first bankruptcy having lost over 80% of the company's debt). He had an opportunity and a good finacial position to save Remington but failed. Despite being the man in charge of the company, as it entered it second bankruptcy that ended wtih the company being auctioned off in parts, he some how arranged it so he could buy the 1 million square foot Ilion NY facility and the Storm lake barrel facility in TN and nearly all the equipment in both facilities from the bankruptcy auction for a mere 13 million dollar. He then gets to retain his CEO title with the new Rem Arms LLC. Ruger paid 30 million and only got the Marlin's technical data packages and a couple dozen CNC machining centers and no property at all. Speer bough Barnes for over 30 million and got one much smaller facility (~50,000 sq ft). It might all be legal, as it's all in the bankruptcy paper work if you look for it, but it still smell like crap. This same Ken D'Arcy shut down Bushmaster and DPMS in late 2019 in the run up to the 2020 election not because they were not making money (pretty easy to make money selling AR's in an election year) but because they were politically objectionable to (my assumption here) the banks that put him in charge of the company after those banks became owners of Remington after the first bankruptcy. This is not about bitchin' this is about being deliberate with were my money goes and what gun companies I support. I will not give my money to a gun company run by a Fudd. If Rem Arms LLC comes under new management I will reconsider, but not before. You can put Rem Arms LLC in the same general pot as the NRA as far as their leadership and my money goes.

    As for 700 vs 70, I own one of each. A pre-64 model 70 in 270 Win and a 2019 Remington 700 in 6mm Creedmoor I moved to a custom chassis. The 700 is a 1/2 MOA easily when I do my part, the M70 is 1 MOA or slightly worst. I like them both and use them both. If push game to shove I do like the 700 action slightly better but I really do like both actions for different reasons.

    [​IMG]
    .38 MOA 5-shot group, shot @ 200 yards with my Remington 700 shooting Barnes factory 6mm Creedmoor ammunition.

    -rambling
     
  14. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Member

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    The problem with the 700 from the git go was it didn't have a real safety. It only blocked the sear whereas the model 70 had a real safety that held the firing pin from going forward until it was switched off.
     
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  15. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Let’s be real for a bit…

    A company bought the name and production gear from a company which had bought a name and DIVESTED the original production gear and operators from a company which had made the reputation of “Remington”. We do not have the same workers on the same gear, now two fold, and the only reason we’re talking about it is because someone is making what amounts to be a Rem 700 clone which just happens to have the same name on the side - and includes NONE of the feature upgrades other manufacturers of Rem 700 clones (like Bergara, Seekins, Surgeon, Stiller, Impact, Defiance, etc).

    If it said “D’Arcy Model 1” on the side, would you be so interested?

    If a guy isn’t looking at a RemArms model 700 through the same lens they looked at Bergara, or looked at the new design of the Ruger American, or the FN made Win 70’s, just because it says “Remington 700” on the side, they’re not appropriately evaluating the product within the market.
     
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  16. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    If a wood stocked gun was in my future, it would probably be a Model 70 or Browning. I have owned a Bergara B-14 Woodsman and have sold a couple of the Timberlines. My take is, Bergara should take a few lessons on wood finishing from CZ or Browning. Don't get me wrong, the Bergara rifles are good, solid, accurate rifles, but I will stick with their Synthetic Hunters. Some of my favorite rifles as far as aesthetics go, are the 700 CDL and the Classic, but the quality of the Remarm guns remains to be seen.
     
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  17. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Not an issue if you follow the four rules of gun safety. Those rules never mention or rely on a mechanical safety A mechanical safety is as prone to failure as is any other mechanism. The safety is nice to have as an extra backup but is no part of the primary safety rules to gun handling.
     
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  18. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Yup. Some of my rifles haven’t even had safeties, and my most fired rifles for the last several years now don’t ever get the safety activated unless by accident.
     
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  19. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    What really astonishes me is that they doubled down on it and kept shipping the same design for decades and decades while paying out lawsuits and sweeping it under the rug. The indifference they showed is truly astounding.
     
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  20. upptick

    upptick Member

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    Indeed. I think they probably received legal advice to "admit nothing" and thought that changing the design would be a de facto admission. So sad how an iconic American company died in shame.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
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  21. Southmountain

    Southmountain Member

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    These responses are incredibly insightful thank you all very much.

    My interest in possibly getting a M700 is unorthodox. I own two Model 70’s and agree that they are superior. They are my favorites and probably only comparable non-custom ones are made by Sako. I take them on memorable outings, etc. along with vintage Winchester 1892 and 1894.

    I’m looking for a beater rifle that is walnut & blued that I can put a vintage peep sight on. Just nice enough but not one I’ll lose sleep over if I ding up the stock (or fall in a creek). A poor man’s M70, but I don’t want to get a $400 synthetic model (life’s too short). Just a step up with some classic qualities but not too nice. M700’s seem to fit the bill.

    However I’ve stayed away from Remington because of its former ownership. Cerebus private equity is the worst and is the anti-gun lobby’s dream player to destroy the fragile firearms industry. It took out arguably the #1 big fish in Remington.

    I had thought it would be a different story with “new” leadership under Remarms but reading these comments looks like I was wrong. So I won’t be supporting Remarms. Maybe a vintage Remington or something else.
     
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  22. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I disagree that "procedures" are supposed to compensate for inherently failure prone mechanisms. Remington never put into their manuals any warning that the trigger mechanism was failure prone, and yet, Mike Walker, from the earliest, had given management an improved design that would have fixed that problem. Once Mike Walker heard of the trigger failing, he was proactive. He said the fix would have cost 50 cents per rifle, but management would not spend the money once the rifle was in production.

    Remington never put into their manuals, any procedure to clean, or keep the trigger mechanism from failing. Remington also told everyone who called, that "they were the only one who ever had this problem". Remington lied, lied, lied.

    Mechanical safeties are not all alike. This is a typical over ride trigger mechanism, it operates on the same principle as a trap door, and to get those minimal movement trigger releases, there is hardly any sear surface engagement. And all the safeties do in these mechanisms is block the movement of the trigger.

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    The M70 safety is very rugged. The absolute best safeties and trigger mechanisms were the military ones installed on Mausers, Arisaka's, M1903's, which positively hold the firing pin back, and only the breakage of the firing pin, and then a breakage of the sear surfaces on the cocking piece and trigger, will cause a discharge. The sear surface engagement on military bolt actions is in the tenth of an inch range, when the trigger is not pulled. With one of these rifles, you can bayonet and butts stoke someone, and the rifle will not discharge through jarring.

    This is a Garand trigger mechanism, and it is outstanding. The hammer is positively cammed back by the safety. Jarring the sears won't release the hammer. John Garand designed a really excellent mechanism.


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    I really dislike mechanisms that are bobby traps waiting to blow up in the face of the unlucky.
     
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  23. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    As an addendum to the safety rules, and pointing the muzzle in a safe direction, I found an article about an accidental firing of a Rem M700 in El Paso TX. As I recall, the rifle owner came home, round in chamber, and in the drive way, released the safety with the muzzle pointing up. The trigger malfunctioned, the round went into the air, and came down on a lady mowing the lawn. Killing her.

    We live in a very populated world, and I have heard plenty of stories of accidental discharges, from ranges, that landed on roofs. In time, homeowners get the range shut down.
     
  24. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    I like the Rem 700, but prefer the Win 70 safety. There is a conversion kit for the 700 that replaces the bolt shroud with a bolt shroud type safety that intercepts the firing pin. Rem should reengineer the 700 to incorporate this feature and call it a new model. Heck, add a detachable box magazine so they can really claim it's a newer design.
     
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  25. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Remington made versions of the 700 with detachable magazines including a proprietary flush box magazines and using various makers stocks/bottom metal that allow the use of standard AICS magazine with the 700.

    The Remington 700 is very much like a Glock. You can build a 700 from the ground up and never touch a single Remington or RemArms part.
     
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