New S&W "problems" overstated?

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I highly doubt there is a vast conspiracy against S&W.

FWIW they are kind in getting shipping labels out quick and free when their guns go bad. Unfortunately this is often.

Of the S&Ws I have owned, almost all needed to go back to the factory, a couple multiple times.
 
"..almost all needed to go back to the factory, a couple multiple times."

How do you think S&W's customer service got so good? :)
 
In revolvers, S&W charges a comparatively premium price for a comparatively premium product. There's a sour grapes component from those who don't have the budget for it, not to mention the internet parroting-effect.

Les
 
Take it all with a grain of salt.

You have your S&W bashers that come along in most S&W threads. You find out pretty quickly who to mostly ignore when reading their posts. Their replies end up discounted, IMO. But I'm sure they probably sway some folks.

I've owned many S&W products and haven't had a problem with any of them, never even needed customer service. Never needed Ruger customer service either. Both make good guns. Take it for what it's worth.
 
I'd buy an S&W with a lock.

I'll NEVER buy an S&W with THAT lock.

Other than a bullseye .22 or my Giles .38 Special M1911, EVERY handgun I have has at least a secondary self-defense role. I'm NEVER going to trust MY life to a gun with the current ILS.

That means that for the foreseeable future, I'll never own a new S&W revolver. I've got a safe full of great pre-lock S&W revolvers. There's no reason in the world for me to spend a dime for something that I don't want, from people who don't want me as a customer.
 
You know folks, while this sort of anti-S&W subject is a perennial one among internet forums, it also comes up occasionally in conversations among firearms enthusiasts and gun carriers/users in normal situations when the talk turns to firearms makes/models.

Over the years I've found that I simply refrain from becoming embroiled in such conversations. Since many of my friends and acquaintances know that I finally added a S&W revolver armorer class to my list of firearm armorer certifications, they sometimes expect me to "take sides" in such discussions.

While I'll sometimes offer my experiences, observations and opinions about such subjects, I never expect someone to change their mind because of something I may say or relate.
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Nor do I really care one way or the other.

Lots of folks that own, use and enjoy firearms have very strong opinions, and that's there prerogative.

I don't shill guns.
 
A guy on the Smith-Wesson forums makes "plugs" that replace and erase the ILS.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-rev...j-frame-2.html
There is a detailed how-to, and they don't cost much.

I'd trust this "plug" less than the IL. The plug and the clip would fall into the action and turn the revolver into nothing more than a club. The "plug" solution also doesn't address the huge gap next to the hammer. The gap allows crap like lint to fall into the action. In my opinion, having the gap and the "plug" is worse than having the lock.
 
Nearly ten years ago a local gun store had a S&W weekend. As part of the promotion they had a S&W gunsmith (Vito iirc) there and you could bring in one gun to have it checked out and fixed if he could do it with hand tools. Boy, was he good, I stood and watched him work, and talk, for a couple of hours.

Anyway, the guy in front of me had a big stainless .44 magnum that he said was spitting lead to the side.

The gunsmith took one look at it and said, "Send it back, there's no forcing cone at all."

All the makers make duds from time to time.
 
i a very tight industry

the revolver market is tight?

what competition does S&W have? Taurus? Charter?

Looks to me like they are building Taurus quality products at Smith prices.

Thomas Tusser was right on
 
the revolver market is tight?

what competition does S&W have? Taurus? Charter?

Profit margins are tight. S&W's is hovering around 6%. Seems to me that in order to survive, any such business must be at least as concerned about balancing costs, price and product quality as they are about any outside competition.

And keep in mind, S&W makes more than just revolvers, and there's a lot of competition in that sandbox, which makes the management of a tight margin even harder.
 
I'm not sure if my most recent S&Ws qualify as "new" or not - they're from 2008. One is a 642 revolver and the other is a 908s 9mm auto. But both have been flawless.
 
Overstated, yes. Perfect no. I have a 629 MG that I bought in 2005 and it has been an excellent firearm. I have talked to many S&W owners and none of them have had IL related problems. The biggest complaint I have heard is from J frame owners and the bore being rough.
I have learned long ago to judge a product in person and not by other peoples opinon especially on a topic that will bring out both haters and lovers.
 
Guys, let's face it ... almost nothing is made as well as it was 20 years ago. Prices on raw materials and labor have soared, while cheap off-shore competition is eating into everyone's margins, and companies do what they must to survive.

Does CNC make an inferior product? Not at all. Generally CNC machining centers IMPROVE product QA as long as SPC/SQC and manual testing stays top notch. But it hasn't. Production rates among mfrs have been pushed to the edge to meet demand and improve thru-put. We know that. And QA/QC and testing is usually the first thing to suffer.

So, does S&W make the same kind of product I bought so many of in my twenties? No. And neither does anyone else in the US. Look at US Sig. Sig Sauer built virtually indestructible uber accurate pistols for years. When I was a kid owning a Sig was a HUGE deal and you could shut down a range when shooting one as everyone wanted to come and see it and maybe even timidly ask to shoot just one round thru it. But what we see from US manufacturing is not quite comparable (sorry Sig lovers). If we want the kind of quality S&W, Ruger, and Dan Wesson used to produce we'd be looking at far higher prices than we currently see. So we pay what we pay and we get what we get. Wanna blame someone? Take a look in the mirror. Our birthright as Americans has been sold to the lowest global bidder and we allowed it to happen.

Have fun shopping Walmart for all those neat Chinese products this holiday season. :)

(All this "Buy American" crap from a guy with a closet full of Austrian pistols :D )
 
Other than the IL, what are the issues?

Does an occasional gun get out of the plant with problems? Sure. It happens across every brand in existence. Is it endemic? Of course not.

I bought a new Chevy once with a defective carburetor (back when they made carburetors). Did all Chevys come with that defect? Did it cause the entire vehicle to become a piece of junk? No, once the problem was fixed the car ran for 10 years very reliably until I traded it for something else.

And, yes, I've had S&W handguns with issues when new. S&W fixed them and the guns worked perfectly forevermore.

One important thing I have discovered about the Internet and online forums--there is an inherent background whine present everywhere. The Internet is a great place for people to moan and groan and pitch fits over anything and everything.
 
I'd trust this "plug" less than the IL. The plug and the clip would fall into the action and turn the revolver into nothing more than a club. The "plug" solution also doesn't address the huge gap next to the hammer. The gap allows crap like lint to fall into the action. In my opinion, having the gap and the "plug" is worse than having the lock.
What he said.

When I bought a Browning Hi Power, something like twenty years ago, the first thing I did was have the magazine safety removed. That's a preference rather than a necessity. I consider removing the ILS from a self-defense firearm an ABSOLUTE necessity. I can probably get an appropriate used S&W revolver for less money than a new one that I'll HAVE to monkey with before its usable for its intended purpose.

Regarding the plugs, they get good reviews on the S&W Forums where I'm a member. The frame gap issue has been mentioned. Either the guy making the plugs or somebody else has talked about a fix for the gap, but there's nothing tangible so far, that I know of.
 
Got a 629 last year... and a 310 a few months ago.

Fit on all parts is great.

The 310 had an issue with reliable ignition at first - apparently they started using shorter firing pins on N-frames, and guns with moon clips don't like that. S&W fixed it under warranty, paid shipping BOTH ways, and had my gun back in my hands by the end of the week. It took 6 days TOTAL, and the problem with light strikes is completely fixed. The 310 is now one of my favorite guns.


Now, do I think S&W is TWICE as durable or reliable as all the other revolvers out there? No, I don't... but I think the Ruger cyl. latch is stupid, not to mention their uninspired design. Colts are JUST as expensive, and the 'affordable' used ones are usually beat to hell... Taurus is a non-start.

To get a gun that handles like a 629, you have to spend $900 on a S&W 629... If you want a 10mm alloy frame revolver, you have to fork over $900 for a S&W 310.

You have to pay to play the game, because many of S&Ws models are unique.
 
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I have 4 S&Ws, 3 are K-frames & 1 is a J-frame.
All are 1982 & older.
I've looked at the new S&Ws & just don't like what I'm seeing.
I don't have any hard evidence, infact I don't even have any
anecdotal evidence that the new ones are somehow worse.

I just don't like the looks, shape & feel of them.

If the new ones work for you - great go for it.

As for me? I'll stick with my 1966/67 Model 10.
 
I have a S&W 686-5 power port, with a 6in. bbl. It has all the MIM. parts & the FP. in the frame, not on the hammer. It dose not have the Lock. What a wonderfull revolver! I have no problem with MIM. parts. any part can break. I don't like the way the lock looks or what it stands for, plus it's one more part that can break that dose'ent need too be there at all. So I opt out. :)
 
I bought one of the $1200 professional grade 686s last year and I gotta say I could shoot circles around it with my model 10-4 that is devoid of any bluing left that I bought at a pawn shop for $125. New doesnt always mean better.
 
You can't do any kind of real action job on MiM parts as the surface is too thin and the internal metallurgy is too soft.

Can anybody document a case where an internal lock saved anybodies life?
Can anybody document a case where the lock cost someone their life?

S&W has been putting guns on the market for too long that have not been fully tested and they use their customers as the guinea pigs.
When enough of something goes wrong or a major problem shows up, it's recall time.
Seems to me like they have an awful lot of recall time guns hitting the market and that is enough to turn me away from their products.

Anybody bought a Remington Model 700 lately??
 
If one tries the old methods, the guns are quickly unaffordable and you'll have consumers complaining about the cost of the gun.

That's a good point. Unfortunately, customers are still complaining about the cost of new S&W revolvers. It seems to me that you're only shrinking your market if you simultaneously reduce quality and raise prices. Personally, I really like S&W revolvers, but I still cringe when I see the price tags on new ones in the case.
 
You can't do any kind of real action job on MiM parts as the surface is too thin and the internal metallurgy is too soft.

Not sure I'd make such blanket statements about current MIM parts as being made and used in S&W guns.

There might be some contrary experiences among gunsmiths & the factory folks who work on them.

One aftermarket company that is currently modifying M&P pistol sear housings (drilling/enlarging a sear plunger hole in the block) has said in another forum that they're only able to drill the housings on 5-6 guns before wearing out their expensive carbide cutters.
 
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