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New SAAMI cartridge - 6.8 Westerner

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Gtscotty, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    6.8 WESTERN:

    A Nosler 165 gr. ABLR, ahead of ~ 60 gr. of RL 22, for ~ 2,950 fps...?

    Would:
    - Produce ~ 23 ft-lbs of recoil from a 24" Bbl'ed 8.5 lb rifle.
    - Have a MPBR(+/-3") of ~ 300 yards.
    - Carry 2,000 ft-lbs out to ~ 425 yards. (for the big stuff)
    - Carry the 2,000 fps/1,500 ft-lbs freight out to ~ 675 yards.
    - Be supersonic out to ~ 1,500 yards.

    Stuff it into a M70 EW/SS and throw in a Partition bullet at that wt. for the woods...?

    Very interesting...




    GR
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  2. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    I took my New Haven Stainless Ultra Classic .270 WSM to Africa a couple years after purchasing it new . I t has a Leupold VX3 3.5-10x in Dead Nutz Game Reaper Mounts I put on when new . I bedded the action and lightened the trigger pull a bit. I also took a .375 H&H . The .270 WSM with 150 grain Partition Federal Premium did the trick on everything like a lazer wand. The PH was impressed . The recoil is not bad , about like a .308 . That rifle became my go to LR deer and even elk and pig rifle . In California I used the Barnes Copper Federal ammo and used the 130 grain load as the deer are smaller there , pigs are bigger but the 130 grain copper load bowls them over with huge wounds I really like the cartridge. My first deer rifle in 1964 was a 1953 Winchester .270 which I still have. I tried the 7mm Mag in the late 70s and early eighties but didn't like it much, it was not as accurate and smacked me around .I went to .308 for deer until trying the .270WSM , which I really think is a great cartridge. Of course I do hunt with lots of other cartridges each has a purpose , I don't think I will get a 6.8 Western tho , I would just get a fast twist .270 WSM if I felt the need. My niche LR calibers are .6.5 Creedmore and for 40 years .264 Win Mag and the great .300 Weatherby :)
     
  3. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    Sounds like my 280ai.

    Nothing new under the sun. But for someone who loads for 270 and likes to stick with .277 bullet purchasing; if those numbers are correct sounds like a peach.
     
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  4. murf

    murf Member

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    i forgot about this. can't shoot the long bullets without it.

    murf
     
  5. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    But is it worth a new scoped rifle, say, $1,2-1,500...?


    The .270 WCF - will shoot the .277" 150 gr. ABLR ~ 25 fps slower (24" Bbl) than the .280 AI shoots the similar SD/BC .284" 168 gr. ABLR from the same Bbl length.

    And, given the ballpark of ~ 5 fps velocity/(0.010) BC/100 yds... and the .284" 168 gr. ABLR's (+0.030) BC advantage?

    ...That all adds up to a 100 fps advantage... at ~ 500 yds.


    A little more energy down range, sure... but not decisively so.

    And, as you pointed out... the new .277" 165 gr. ABLR is about the same.


    Which really puts it in the Loooog Range hunting rifle class.




    GR
     
  6. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Agree, rifles are Durable Goods and one main way for the manufacturers to sell more is to convince you that yours is obsolete and you need the latest longer, lower, wider.
    I can't shoot hunting conditions farther than a plain old .270WCF will handle and I don't feel a need for a different caliber target rifle.
     
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  7. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    I recently did a pre season refresher Max Point Blank Range Calculation for my 270 WSM. I am shooting a Swift Scirocco 130 gr. Bonded bullet. Muzzle velocity is 3300 fps. G1BC is .450 On a regular deer sized critter it is possible to sight in (as Jack O'Connor stated) 3" high and hold dead-on to 375 yds. A little hold over (high shoulder) easily gets you to 400. I can't really get steady enough in the field to take advantage of anything further. Now I know the new long range shooting is a new thing, but unless my legs quit working, or the mulies get a lot faster and smarter, this is all I need. And I don't argue with the teachings O'Connor unless my trophy room is bigger (which it is not)
     
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  8. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    My experience also ! I have shot things DRN out to 410 meters in Africa and almost as far in Western States with my .270 WSM and similar load . Even from a shooters tripod like a Bog Death grip I cannot see going beyond that ethically . I only had nice shooters walking sticks well set up in Africa and use a Harris Bipod for Western Stalking like Antelope and although 600 yards may be doable my eyes can't even with a BIG scope, like a 6-24 . My son who is 42 uses that Bog Death Grip for his fairly heavy barrel very accurate .300 Weatherby custom with a Big Zeiss HD5 5-25 scope with their z800 set up and thinks he is good for 600 on elk in Oregon, but is coming to the reality of half that is realistic hunting. .
     
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  9. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    Thinkin'bout this round (.277" ABLR 165 gr./2950 fps) with something like maybe a 24" Bbl'ed Ruger Precision Rifle, shooting from the ground w/ a bi-pod.

    Couple-Three $Grand w/ glass?

    Should reach ~ 700 yds for game... and paper and contingencies out to ~ 1500 yds.

    To me, that's "...phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range..."




    GR
     
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  10. Gordon
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    Gordon Contributing Member

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    IF you can get a humane hit on game at 700 yards under field conditions . My 8 pound scoped field rig for $1500 I'm in it has to at least 400 and ammo is easily available and expands very well to 400 yards..
     
  11. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    The .277s had fallen by the wayside, but has seen a revival of late. SIG introduced the .277 Fury with a fast twist barrel. Nosler has introduced a 165 gr Accubond LR and Berger a 170 gr VLD hunting. The interest in precision shooting has extended beyond the 6.5 Creedmoor. I believe more of the heavy bullets will become available for the .277 caliber and the cartridge will see increased use. The .277 caliber is right in their with the 6.5 and 7mm and as such, ideally suited to providing long efficient bullets with moderate recoil.
     
  12. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    Have settled of late on the seemingly underwhelming .270 WCF/150 gr. Speer Grand Slam(HC) handloads at a little over 2800 fps, backed up w/ a load of custom 140 gr. TSX found dirt cheap on clearance, and some 130 gr. Federal Trophy Copper acquired the same way... with some Federal 150 gr. NP rounds left over from before the transition.

    When sighted in for 200 yards, all give a MPBR(+/-3") of 250... with an additional foot of "Kentucky Elevation" gettin'em to 350,

    ... and all my .270 WCF rifles are plenty precise for that.

    Me?

    350 yards - is way the hell out there for game.

    But that may be b/c I don't use all the modern gadgetry that makes long range shooting simple(er).

    So for me, it's a good fit.

    Just right on the weight/recoil/range.




    GR
     
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  13. Dimmer359

    Dimmer359 Member

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    If I were to hazard a guess given the recent acceptance of a new military 6.8 military cartridge, someone is expecting a bunch of new 6.8 mm bullets. As a result they wanted a long range, heavy for caliber cartridge in a short action. Sounds interesting but I'm guessing barrel life won't be any better than the 264 mags. Probably great in the field but not enough barrel life for the long range shooters. In all I'm just guessing, maybe it will be great and hit a sweet spot that's been ignored.
     
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  14. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    I would disagree, the Army hasn't accepted a new 6.8 cartridge, although there is a development program going on, from the last I've heard there are still multiple bidders proposing different 6.8 cartridge and weapon designs. Nothing's been accepted or standardized. Also, it sounds like the Army basically provided the bullet they wanted to use (a 6.8 EPR type bullet in the vein of M855A1 and M80A1, supposedly ~135gr) and specified a velocity at a given barrel length, leaving the rest to the proposals. While this case may be based on one of the early offerors developments (I remember seeing something that looked like a WSM early on) the bullets the Army wants to use aren't particularly heavy, and aren't going to have a whole lot of use in a hunting cartridge.

    I think this cartridge is more focused on taking advantage of the newer, longer .277 bullets in the commercial market than any military derived bullets. As far as barrel life goes, it's really not a big driving issue for most hunters, I wouldn't expect this cartridge to be any worse than many reasonably popular cartridges like 7mm Rem mag, .270 WSM, .22-250, 6.5 PRC, 6mm Creed, RUMs, Weatherbys, Nosler Magnums, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  15. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    It will hold a grain or two less powder than the .270 WSM, < 10% over the .270 WCF.

    Should be a pretty well-balanced cartridge.


    The more I look at it, the more I see a .277" 165 gr NP, or Grand Slam, at ~ 2800 from a 22" Bbl.

    BC ~ .520 to .435, respectively, 'bout like the 7mm/175 gr.

    Maybe ~ 58 grns of IMR 4831 and 21 ft-lbs of recoil from a 8.5 lb rifle.

    MPBR(+/-3") of 250 w/ a 200 yd zero, and a foot of "Kentucky elevation" to 350.

    Carry 2,000 fps/1,500 ft-lbs to ~ 475 yds.

    And, more importantly, 2,000 ft-lbs out to 275 yds.

    ...for the big stuff.


    Just a "muscular" short action .270 WCF.

    Shouldn't be any harder on bores than hot .270 WCF loads, either.




    GR
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  16. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    What velocities are you seeing on a 24" 270win with 150 ablrs? I would assume it would be in the 2,800-2850 range? I'm not a 270 guy so I haven't studied loads very closely on it, what twist is needed for the 150grs 1:8.5?

    Most can achieve 2,900+fps on a 24" 280ai

    270win should be approaching the 280ai.

    With the 6.8 Westerner its obvious they will be going with a faster twist than traditional 270 twists.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  17. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    The 6.8 Westerner is entering a very crowded area of ballistics, it will all come down to marketing. The big benefit it has is there is a lot of 270win shooters out there that will jump on the option of a short action 270win, I would imagine.

    Have I missed it in the conversation, what is the 6.8 Westerner's parent cartridge, anyone know?
     
  18. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    One of my crustier old bros made a comment: "Oh, you mean the .276 pedersen short, right?"
    That conversation went south on the bullet weight issue getting into semantics over .276enfield short.

    The vaporware new Army SAW round looks to be a rehash of the .280nato, only no one wants to call it that--no money in the old, only the new.
     
  19. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    Looks to be a .270 WSM w/ the sholder and neck moved back a little, to accommodate the heavier/longer VLD bullets.

    And, being an Olin cartridge, that would make a lot of sense.


    And AFAIK, the .277" ABLR 150 gr.'s work w/ the std. .270 Win./WSM 1:10 twist.

    They are spendy, and outside my performance envelope requirement, so haven't fooled w/'em yet.

    EDIT:

    Nosler say 1:9 twist for the ABLR 150 gr. bullet.

    But, according to actual field tests:

    Note:
    Old Factory BC: G1 = 0.625/G7 = 0.317
    New Factory BC: G1 = 0.591/G7 = 0.298

    proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fappliedballisticsllc.com%2Fimages%2FLRAB.png
    Tested 1:10 twist BC: G1 = 0.543/G7 = 0.278

    ... the .277" ABLR 150 gr. just sheds ~ 7% of its BC, while retaining good accuracy.

    And while this is still a slippery bullet, (BC > 0.100 compared to the NP 150 gr.)

    ... a 165 gr. NP or Speer GS would suit me better.




    GR
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
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  20. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    Also found this interesting:

    NOTE: The Patriot Revere - has a 24" Bbl.

    JB-TABLE.jpg

    Still, ~ 3,000 fps/1.0 MOA (ABLR 150 gr.)... from a .270 WCF/22" Bbl.

    Gott im Himmel!




    GR
     
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  21. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I think the 6.8 Westerner fits a design point which will satisfy a lot of folks.

    We’ve seen it said many times the 6.5 PRC is the new 7mm Rem Mag, however, anyone who has shot much with the 7RM for big game will lean back in their chair and say, “yeah, but....” and extol the differences between the capabilities of a 180class bullet on big game compared to a 156class bullet... and often, rightfully so, because there IS a performance difference on game between the two...

    So folks have been wanting more from the 6.5 PRC, even though it has been selling like hot cakes. How do we get more? Stuff starts getting weird for a 6.5mm bullet at 180grns, so we bump the caliber, and bang... access to 20grn more bullet and higher BC’s... the 7mm market is saturated, and Sig is pushing hard for new high BC bullets for the .277 Fury... why not ride that wave and give hunters what they’ve been wanting: a 6.5 PRC with more punch...
     
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  22. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    At this point...?

    Thinkin' maybe a custom .270 WCF Bbl. for the ole M700.
    ... 24", w/ a 1:8.5 twist.
    ... long throated (like the 27 NOSLER).
    ... maybe "AI" as well, if they have the reamer.

    If the .270 WCF will push a long 150 gr. at > 3050 fps w/ RL-26 from a 24" Bbl...?

    Then 2850 fps should be doable w/ the 165 gr ABLR, or NP/GS for that matter.

    Maybe 2800 fps out of a 22".

    homer-simpson-drooling-25.jpg




    GR
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  23. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Garandimal;
    I believe you mean 40 megawatts.
    Navy’s new laser weapons run 35-55mw.

    I’ve got a 40watt LED landing light on my Piper Cherokee. It’s really bright, but only thing it kills are bugs... With an impact at 115mph...
     
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  24. horsemen61

    horsemen61 Member

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    Can’t wait to see some real world use for this one!
     
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  25. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    I'm sure it'll work just fine, but it certainly isn't necessary and I personally wouldn't risk buying into a brand new cartridge - most of which are relegated to obsolescence after a few years. I understand it's a chicken and egg problem, but personally I'd give it a few years and see if it sticks (a la 6.5 Creedmoor) or doesn't (a la .30 TC).

    Not sure if anything existing can be trimmed and/or necked down to make brass for this, but even as a handloader that can present challenges in the future if there isn't a good parent case to make brass from.
     
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