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New Sig 220 Compact to be repaired 2nd time...

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by buenhec, Jul 29, 2007.

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  1. buenhec

    buenhec Member

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    To hell and back should be To hell with that.

    Im not a happy camper. I got my 220 Compact back from factory repair two weeks ago for failures to feed. They polished the ramp and changed the extractor. Then test fired only 20 shots.

    I ran 300 rounds through it on two occasions after that and still having problems. When doing single shots, the next to the last round does not feed correctly. I need to tap the slide forward for it to close all the way. When doing double taps or rapid fire it rarely happens. When shooting the last mag yesterday I got a double feed...back it goes. Should have gotten a H&K.

    Any suggestions? Someone mentioned its not broken in yet. I have shot a total of 500 rounds. My other Sigs have never had malfunctions, broken in or not.
     
  2. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    Trade it in for an HK.
     
  3. brett30030

    brett30030 Member

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    Sounds like it may be a magazine problem. Have you tried changing to another mag to see helps?
     
  4. dmftoy1

    dmftoy1 Member

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    Just out of curiosity . . .are the problem rounds reloads? I'm guessing not but I have seen a similiar problem when someone was using reloads with a COL that was too long for the chamber of the pistol. (They worked just fine in my buddies "other" pistol which had a looser chamber)

    FWIW.

    Regards,
    Dave
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    I'd let SIGARMS examine it again. Give them a chance to figure out what’s happening with your P220 Compact.

    It's impossible to diagnose problems via the internet, and I certainly wouldn't imply otherwise. I can offer you some educational info for the purpose of polite discussion, though, which may, or may not, be of interest to you ...

    First of all, in the current SIGARMS Pistol Armorer Manual, in the Troubleshooting section for the 220 models, there are a number of suggestions for an armorer to consider when it comes to cartridges not being properly fed into the chamber.

    They include: Magazine not seated properly (insert properly); magazine dirty or deformed (insert fresh magazine, clean or replace the removed magazine); weak magazine spring (replace spring) & dirty/damaged ammunition (change ammunition).

    Then, if the cartridge does not chamber, it lists probable causes of: Cartridge incorrectly fed (check or change magazine); Low quality ammunition (change ammunition) & Shooter error (Keep wrists locked and maintain a firm grip when firing the pistol). Does this last sound familiar? ;)

    These are just the basic probable causes and corrections, and there could be other factors present, as well.

    Anyway, you might want to consider informing the SIGARMS technicians what ammunition you're using; when the feeding issues arise during the range sessions; whether it’s occurring with only one, or more than one, magazine, and how your pistol is lubricated at the time.

    Ammunition is not all created equally.

    Did the feeding issues occur with only one magazine? Did they occur in the beginning of your session? Throughout the entire session? Toward the end of the session? 300 rounds is a fair number of rounds to fire at one time. Some folks might experience their grip strength starting to lessen, or perhaps become erratic. Slide travel and feeding 'timing' can sometimes be affected by grip stability considerations.

    How well is your pistol lubricated? SIGARMS repeatedly emphasizes to its LE armorers that Sig Sauer pistols are intended to be 'wet' pistols when it comes to lubrication. The armorer/operator should be able to verify the pistol is lubricated by being able to 'see' and 'feel' the presence of the lubrication (in the appropriate locations, of course). Granted, over-lubrication is still a problem which can affect proper functioning, and lubricant shouldn't be applied where it doesn't belong, or applied in amounts that allow it to 'run' because of gravity (and perhaps end up where it shouldn't be present, attract dirt & debris or contaminate ammunition) but Sig Sauer pistols are not intended to be fired dry, or with less than proper lubrication.

    The owners manual can provide directions for lubrication, and a Preventive Maintenance Guide available online (prepared by the SIGARMS Academy staff) may also be helpful. http://www.sigarms.com/CustomerService/documents/PREVENTMAINTGUIDE.pdf

    The Guide lists a couple of references to lubrication ... “Environmental extremes such as coastal salt air, humidity and broad shift in temperatures expose unprotected metal to attack, requiring frequent attention with a lubricant/preservative versus a desert environment where the natural attraction of dust and grit to the lubricant becomes a negative factor.”

    And then, “A weapon is not considered properly lubricated unless the lubricant’s presence can be visually and physically verified by the operator.”

    Also, accumulated fouling and debris around the extractor can potentially create feeding issues. The Guide states it as: "Foreign material and firing residue around the breech face and extractor can cause extraction related stoppages as well as failures to feed."

    If this happened toward the end of a 300 round firing session, and especially if the ammunition was of a 'budget' variety which used less clean burning powders than some of the more expensive 'premium' varieties ... well, accumulated fouling can start to affect functioning when it reaches a certain point.

    The other day a fellow brought me a pistol which was exhibiting feeding issues. The make/model is unimportant. What was interesting about it is that after I tentatively discounted the ammunition being used (same ammunition which functions fine in many other weapons) and the shooter’s skills & abilities (another firearms instructor), before I started trying to diagnose what might be ‘wrong’ with the pistol itself, I took a look at the magazine being used. Believe it or not, the magazine spring had been installed backwards. The owner hadn’t disassembled it, either. The follower wasn’t being properly tensioned upward at the front, and this was apparently causing an erratic problem during shooting. I reversed the spring and the ‘problem’ was resolved. I’d like to say that this is the only time I’ve encountered this issue, but as you might’ve guessed, it’s not. ;)

    While we’re mentioning magazines, I’ve seen magazines which have been very dirty and filled with accumulated gunk, and which coincidently seemed to be connected to feeding/functioning issues. Magazines should be clean, dry and free of debris. Excessive fouling can sometimes cause apparent ‘feeding’ problems, and as you might imagine, a magazine spring is at its least amount of tension when it’s almost decompressed near the end of a magazine load. Are all of your feeding issues experienced only toward the end of a magazine load? Is the magazine(s) clean and free of debris? If you have more than one magazine, does one exhibit less felt tension than the other? There’s a reason magazine springs are stocked as spare or repair parts, you know. Even a new magazine spring may be unknowingly defective. I’ve heard of more than one manufacturer having to replace relatively new magazine springs in LE magazines when it turned out a batch or production run of them (often vendor supplied) failed to maintain tension, or slipped through without it being discovered that they may have failed to meet the required specifications. Things happen.

    Granted, 500 rounds ought to have brought your pistol to ‘broken in’ point. FWIW, we were told in the armorer’s class that if one of the new stainless 220's were exhibiting functioning issues in the first 150 or less rounds, that the barrel may have to be ‘seated’ into the slide in order to correct it. Also, the new stainless extractors which cam into the slide and are tensioned/slipped into position are different than the other models which were held within the breech block, or retained by a spring & plunger. The new stainless models are intended to be installed only once, and armorers are told to replace them if they’re ever removed from the slides for any reason. They’re tensioned a bit extra to permit the initial installation.

    So, when trying to diagnose apparent functioning issues it’s not necessarily as ‘easy’ as some folks might think. The things I’ve mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Let the folks at SIGARMS have another chance at trying to determine if there’s a problem with your pistol. Just remember that there are several things which can influence the normal operation and functioning of a semiauto pistol after it leaves the manufacturer, only one of which is the way the pistol was manufactured ... The manufacturer has no control over the ammunition used, the shooter’s skills & abilities, the maintenance or the environment in which the pistol is used.

    Sorry if my babbling isn’t interesting, or doesn’t help reduce the understandable frustration you must be feeling. I just don’t (and can’t) have the ‘answer’ to your problem. I’m certainly nobody’s ‘expert’, nor am I a licensed gunsmith. I’m just a LE armorer, which is kind of at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to knowledge and experience. :)

    As I learned myself, as a new LE armorer ... and have later tried to help train new armorers to realize ... sometimes ‘fixing’ a firearm problem is the ‘easy part’. It’s properly diagnosing the problem, or problems, that’s often the more difficult task. Fixing things which aren’t problems, or are related to existing problems, can take you further from your original goal ... and sometimes even create new, even more annoying ‘problems’.

    I remember being called into the bench once by a couple of other armorers. They were having a problem with a Commander. They were debating a number of parts replacement courses of action they were hoping would correct the problem. After listening to the one guy who had actually been shooting the Commander when the problem occurred, and asking what ammunition had been used, I looked at the pistol AND magazine. A different magazine (different follower design and a fresh magazine spring) resolved the functioning ‘problem’. Of course, it also turned out a couple of other conditions existed which really required attention and correction, and which hadn’t been discovered by the guys about to start ‘fixing things’, but they hadn’t been responsible for the immediate observed ‘problem’. ;)

    Calling to talk to the customer service technician who may be working on a pistol may be possible, or it may not, but it’s also very helpful if someone writes a letter which carefully ... and clearly ... lists not only the perceived problem(s) experienced, but also the conditions under which the perceived problems are experienced.

    Just my thoughts. I hope it’s resolved to your satisfaction. These things can be frustrating.
     
  6. CDignition

    CDignition Member

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    Hmm... To hear some folks talk on Internet message boards, only Kimber makes junk that wont run... Looks like thats not the case,lol..
     
  7. buenhec

    buenhec Member

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    Back to the mothership it goes today. At least they are going to install a short trigger at cost while its there.
     
  8. gudel

    gudel Member

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    x2 on that. eliminate that buyer's remorse quickly.
     
  9. DAVE RICHARDS

    DAVE RICHARDS Member

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    Read somewhere that the former president of Kimber is now the president of Sig. That would explain the sudden outbreak of worthless beavertails on some Sigs. And maybe pressed to meet huge government contracts might explain the apparent drop in Sig quality I've heard rumblings about.
     
  10. ds504

    ds504 Member

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    Feeding problems with 245 after 5000+ rounds

    Sounds like you have the same feeding problems I had except that mine began occuring much later 5000+ rounds, 6 years. My last round and somtimes earlier rounds in the six round mag tried to feed vertically (nose up), a slight pull back on the slide completed the feed. Not good in a gunfight. This occurs with my older magazines, I have 8. The round appears to not come up in the magazine fast enough as the slide is going foward. The three causes I've found were that 1) the follower is a little soft and swells from spring pressure over time and binds inside the magazine. You can check this by removing the base plate the using the spring slide the follower up and down in the magazine. If it is sticky, clean the follower and using 600 grit sand paper lightly sand down the sides of the follower. You can also expand the magazine side a little with a wide blade screw driver. The second cause is a weak magazine spring. I have replace mine and my problem was cured. The final cause is that the p245 and 220 compact is senstive the grip position in that you have to lean into it when firing. The shorter grip causes quick muzzle rise and it is more difficult for the gun to chamber a round at a 60 degrees angle. Long grip sigs do not have this problem. I'm a little suprise be cause your gun is so new.
     
  11. ds504

    ds504 Member

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    Feeding problems with 245 after 5000+ rounds

    Sounds like you have the same feeding problems I had except that mine began occuring much later 5000+ rounds, 6 years. My last round and somtimes earlier rounds in the six round mag tried to feed vertically (nose up), a slight pull back on the slide completed the feed. Not good in a gunfight. This occurs with my older magazines, I have 8. The round appears to not come up in the magazine fast enough as the slide is going foward. The three causes I've found were that 1) the follower is a little soft and swells from spring pressure over time and binds inside the magazine. You can check this by removing the base plate the using the spring slide the follower up and down in the magazine. If it is sticky, clean the follower and using 600 grit sand paper lightly sand down the sides of the follower. You can also expand the magazine side a little with a wide blade screw driver. The second cause is a weak magazine spring. I have replace mine and my problem was cured. The final cause is that the p245 and 220 compact is senstive the grip position in that you have to lean into it when firing. The shorter grip causes quick muzzle rise and it is more difficult for the gun to chamber a round at a 60 degrees angle. Long grip sigs do not have this problem. I'm a little suprise be cause your gun is so new. Good luck
     
  12. Radjxf

    Radjxf Member

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    It's usually an extractor problem. My new P220 Carry is at Sig now for the very same issues. The new stainless slide Sigs have a new crappily designed extractor that lacks the proper radius to allow the rounds to slide up under it appropriately. In addition to this, they throw these extractors in and don't "tune" them. In other words most of the new style extractors are WAY too tight, not allowing the round to slide up the breechface all the way, resulting in a round that is jammed halfway into the chamber at an angle. I love my OLD GERMAN Sigs, but unfortunately, Sig is following Kimber's lead selling "cosmetically cool" guns that are thrown together with no attention to fitment. How much would it realistically cost to have someone run "unpowdered" ammo through the gun before it leaves the factory? Wouldn't it be less than all the labor and time involved with the countless warranty returns they're dealing with regarding the new ****ty P220 extractor design and fitment. Sorry, gettin' a little raged up!:cuss:
    p.s. I have a thread at Sigforum in gunsmithing right now with pics discussing this very same matter.
     
  13. zeroskillz

    zeroskillz Member

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    Just a few suggestions:
    Disassemble the mags and clean them
    Do the same with the gun and lube.
    Try different ammo.
    Have someone else try the gun.

    Good luck.
    -Ted
     
  14. buenhec

    buenhec Member

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    Since I started this thread, I sent my Compact back twice to get the extractor replaced. The problem was solved. Now my brand new Equinox has the same problem. I hope they fix it right the first time. What the hell?
     
  15. Catalina

    Catalina Member

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    My brand new P220 Compact SAS does almost the same thing. :what: :cuss: :fire: During slow fire the last round does not feed and I must manually eject the round somewhat forcefully. This was with "personal defense" rounds of all sorts and Winchsester White Box.

    I want to put a few more boxes through the tool prior to contacting Sig - but it seems inevitable I'll need some 1911-type extractor tuning on the anti-1911 handgun :rolleyes:

    buenhec, you say
    Was it simply by tuning the poorly desinged extractor, or did they do something more radical? During your back and forth with Exeter how were you treated? Are you out of pocket for any shipping fees?

    TIA:)
     
  16. Geno

    Geno Member

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    I never knew that the Sigs had to be wet with lubricant. I have thought of someday buying one, but what I have really come to appreciate of my Glocks is that they run no matter the lubrication. I do not intend for that to be a slam in Sigs...they are some of the nicest-looking pistols I have ever seen, and don't even get me started about how great they feel in-hand. :eek: All the same, I hope you get the problem resolved...especially in light of it being a carry piece.

    Doc2005
     
  17. PX15

    PX15 Member

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    fastbolt:

    That was about a "tactful" post as I've seen in a long time... Good for you.

    I have a question or two:

    Apparently the new barrel, extractor or both are potentially weak areas in the new Sig P220 Compact.. Does the earlier P245 have the same potential for such problems?

    The reason I ask is that "after" I get my Walther PPS either the Sig P220 Compact, or Sig P245 is next on my "wanted" list.

    I've had a full size P220 in decades past, and it was a fantastic pistol. It NEVER had a feeding/firing problem and I was of the opinion that Sig's were basically "bulletproof" and generally 100% reliable...

    My P220 was the European model with heel mag release, and the only reason I sold it is it was a bit too large for my small hands.. I've never held either the P220 Compact or P245 and I intend to do so before I buy, but this concern for the new extractor, etc. problems makes me a bit nervous.

    Thanks!

    J.Pomeroy
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    The P245's with the stamped slides (made in Germany) and breech blocks held in place by roll pins use the older extractor.

    We were told that it was the newer P220's with stainless slides (made in US) which used the new extractor (and a solid pin, versus the paired, 'nested' roll pins).

    Dunno if they made any P245's with the US-made stainless slides prior to discontinuing that specific model. If so, it's not listed in the Sig Sauer owner's manual.
    http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/documents/CLASSICPISTOLOM.pdf

    I don't see why Sig Sauer wouldn't be able to get their new tensioned .45 extractor design 'down', so to speak. Ruger uses a similarly 'already tensioned' extractor design in their P90, although their stainless steel is a unique proprietary blend which has some really interesting properties.

    From how it was explained to us, the US-made P220 barrels might sometimes turn out to be just a bit tight in the new stainless slides, and may require some 'seating' in the slide if there's a functioning problem encountered during the first 150-odd rounds ... which basically involves the use of a brass hammer, judiciously applied. ;)

    I remember we were told to beware of kinked firing pin plunger springs in the P220 models with a breech block, since it could cause a gritty trigger.

    To look for cracks at the bottom of the frame insert's ramp, especially in .45's if +P ammunition was being used.

    To check the slide catch lever spring to see if broken at the 'V' tip (rear) ... (it was mentioned that lack of proper lube and worn recoil springs can create conditions which allow increased forces to be exerted on things, including other springs).

    To check for excessive wear on one of the machined slots in the trigger pivot pin (the left side - again, caused by excessive recoil).

    To check for recoil spring core separation and/or sharp inside coils edges (replace spring).

    Checking the front of the firing pin safety shoulder to make sure it wasn't becoming rounded off because of the firing pin safety block (replace F/P if it does), and check for damage to the F/P if the roll pins (or solid retaining pin, depending on model) had been improperly installed, being forced against the edge of the shelf on the F/P.

    I've handled and shot the P220's since they were first imported as the Browning Double Action (BDA) model, in both European & American (mag catch locations) designs ... although I haven't had the opportunity to shoot one of the American produced 220ST's, or one of the new Compacts. Some of the older P220's I handled and shot sometimes seemed a bit sensitive to JHP nose cavity shape, and some didn't.

    The newer P220 series is reported to be a bit more robust than the earlier models.

    I've only heard second-hand info that the newer 8-round magazines have supposedly sometimes been causing some issues for some users, compared to the previous 7-round magazines. Dunno. Wouldn't be the first time someone tried to stuff an extra round into a magazine body originally intended to hold 7 rounds and see some unexpected issues reported. ;)

    You could get better info from a more experienced Sig Sauer armorer. I just took the course once so I could start repairing problems which occur to the few Sig Sauer pistols personally owned by some of our folks.

    When I went through the class the emphasis was on P229 DAK's, although they were still using the older P220 slides for part of the class so students could learn to repair the older .45's.

    I sure don't claim to have all the answers PX15. Not by a long shot. I'm not a gunsmith, nor a factory technician. I just wrench on guns as a LE armorer when I have the time between my other duties. It always seems that just about the time I start to get an angle on something, somebody goes and changes things, or 'improves' something. :D

    Best regards. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2007
  19. PX15

    PX15 Member

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    fastbolt:

    Thanks!

    J.Pomeroy
     
  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    PX15,

    De Nada.

    fb
     
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