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New Study: From 2000 to 2018, No shootings at schools that allow teachers and staff to carry guns

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by LiveLife, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    This is an exceptionally bad idea, the notion of moving students during a shooting event is a recipe for disaster.

    I can hear it now...
    Now class, those are gunshots and that is the active shooter alarm. We all need to leave our classroom and move out in the open, down the hall to Mrs. Johnson's class. She has a gun. Try not to get shot while you are on the move to her class as we aren't coming back for you. Steve, you will lead the class. When you get to Mrs. Johnson's room, tell her who you are and she will unlock and unbarricade her door and let us inside. We are going to move in a calm and orderly fashion. No running or screaming. Make sure you have your buddy. Everybody stay together. We don't want you getting lost in the confusion of all the shooting that is happening right now.
     
  2. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    No where have I said anything disavowing having teachers and staff armed. In fact, I have done nuttin' but the opposite. I've just have said we need to do more than just that and that we need to things in the interim until it is an universal practice. I also am of the opinion that arming teachers and staff is not going to be the end all, and that other things such as run/hide/fight need to be taught.

    Not arguing for, just saying in lieu of an alternative, it's better than nuttin'. Go to any website on Active Shooters and you will find Run/Hide/Fight. Everyone of them will list under fight, to throw items at the active shooter...., it's not my idea. https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/active_shooter_pocket_card_508.pdf

    If I am for arming, why would I give reasons not to arm staff and teachers?

    Sorry if my opinions do not mirror yours and that I actually have some inside knowledge of what is being done. Pretty good chances that even in the schools that teachers and staff are being trained and armed, that there are other policies and procedures in place too.
     
  3. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    And you are also arguing tactics to oppose the strategy of arming and training teachers and staff on a voluntary basis.
     
  4. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Well I can agree with most of that. Would you be throwing the mini baseball bats then ?
     
  5. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Nearly 25 states’ policies allow schools or districts to give permission to “individuals” to carry guns:

    • Alaska
    • Arizona
    • Connecticut
    • Georgia
    • Idaho
    • Indiana
    • Iowa
    • Kansas
    • Kentucky
    • Louisiana
    • Massachusetts
    • Michigan
    • Mississippi
    • Montana
    • Nevada
    • Ohio
    • Rhode Island
    • South Carolina
    • Texas
    • New Jersey
    • New York
    • Utah
    • Vermont
    • West Virginia
    In addition, these 8 states have policies that specifically allow school employees — other than security personnel, which are allowed to carry guns in 28 states — to carry guns on school property, though they may need the district’s permission:

    • Idaho
    • Kansas
    • Louisiana
    • Missouri
    • South Dakota
    • Tennessee
    • Texas
    • Wyoming

    https://www.mcall.com/news/education/mc-nws-guns-in-schools-list-20181108-story.html
     
  6. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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  7. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Everyone here is gun people...
    We live in the Chattahoochee National Forest and I'm typing this with a firearm within reach and we have bull dogs or Pitts. About 3/4 of a mile up the road is Duane with a .30 Carbine, a pistol and a dog. Next is Terry, a woman with no firearms and no dogs.
    Now, if you knew the above, which house would you rob?
    The answer is simple; the one without a means of protecting themselves.
     
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  8. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

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    There weren’t mass shootings historically because the idea had not been originated by anyone and promulgated in the culture through media, social media, and gaming culture. The Texas tower shooting didn’t take off as a copycat trend. Columbine did. What’s the difference between 1966 and 1999? Our electronic media saturated culture promotes ideas and exaggerates them out of proportion.

    It seems to me that even though the availability of guns and evolution of gun design has made the act of mass shootings a bit more possible, the cultural machinery that promulgates the idea, either through glamorizing first person shooting as an idea or hyper protesting the idea of citizen access to small arms, a steady diet of guns as an attractive illegitimate evil power is an often repeated theme.

    The idea of disciplined and responsible use of firearms by citizens is an idea that lacks traction in our media culture. It’s not dramatic and it doesn’t sell widgets.

    So here we have the idea of some teachers, ostensibly squared away people, committed to the positive development of students, getting trained up, CC licensed, and carrying a DAO pocket pistol in deep concealment in a good retention holster.

    This good idea has no chance in this cultural and media environment. Until one person stops a maniac and saves their class. One positive act could ignite a movement. And maybe change a culture.
     
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  9. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I don't know what you mean that there were no mass shooting historically. There most certainly were, even at schools...
    1891 https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DAC18910331.2.6&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1
    1893 https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC18930327.2.11&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1
    1898 https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=LAH18981213.2.55&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1
     
  10. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Just historically, did you know that a college professor killed his wife, went on the run, became another professor using an alias, became a German secret agent in WWI and attempted a mass shooting at the house of JP Morgan (the millionaire and banker for the Allies)? Shot Morgan who was defending his family and then was tackled by household staff.
     
  11. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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  12. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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  13. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    I bet @Double Naught Spy knew it since he is also a secret agent :D
     
  14. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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  15. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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  16. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

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    If not a new phenomenon, then maybe it’s just a natural function of a certain percentage of the population

    Guesstimating 1to 5 a year in the 1890s when the U.S. population was 62 million.

    Fast forward to today: 100 to 200 a year in 2019 when the population is 350 million...

    That’s a hundred-fold increase in mass shootings while only a 6-fold increase in population. What could account for the steep increase in mass shootings? Wars? Depression? Pestilence?...we could always blame semi-auto firearms, but even that isn’t really the answer, because something has to motivate those shooters to act.

    Maybe there’s something in the culture now that compounds and amplifies the idea of mass shootings, fanning the flame and acting as a Vector for the contagion to spread. Still seems to me like e-media and culture pump up the jam on mass shootings. Nothing sells like publicity.
     
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  17. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I can neither confirm nor deny.

    Aggression does tend to increase with population density, even outside of electronic media... http://www.ncsociology.org/crowding.htm
     
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  18. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    ^^^This is my guess. Many of these shooters are flies on the wall at their school. Along with their anger they also have a lust to have some sort of acknowledgement. They see another school shooter get immortalized by the media for weeks and months at a time and they figure they will go down in history too. They care little if it's in a negative way, at least folks won't forget their name.......again.
     
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  19. Poper

    Poper Member

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    Ok. Got me.
    I did not intend to reference ancient history and was thinking in contemporary terms. If you ask the average person on the street, school shootings began with Columbine. I would venture to guess (I have done no research on this) that the vast majority of shootings since and including Columbine have been in Gun Free Zones.
     
  20. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    So do you REALLY believe we're gonna train teachers to be tactical response teams?
    Obviously you have no training and no idea what goes into that training.
    I'm a Range Ssfety Officer, Certified Rifle Instructor and firearms competitor of 40+ years. I know what the average shooter is capable of during range time. Add a little competition stress and I see them fall apart. Add active shooter stress and ? Then you have the human fight or flight phenomenon.
     
  21. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    Most studies in school shootings tend to leave out the shooter's motivation.
    From what I've seen, most of the shooters seem to be motivated by the suicidal/homicidal side-effects of Ritalin and other prescribed drugs, the classroom relationships that led to the required use of those drugs, the feelings of despondency derived from the belief - often reinforced by the attitudes of the teachers - that they are losers for life, and a desire for fame of some sort.

    Most seem to want to go out in a blaze of glory, becoming a source of fear and terror that will guarantee that they will be remembered.

    The thought that they might fail, that they might be shot down or disarmed and captured before they commit their bloody assault is what seems to frighten them most.

    The ones that have a vendetta against a particular student or small group usually know that their target or targets are easier to get outside of the classroom. The shooting may be on the school grounds, but probably not in class.

    The gang-banger, likewise, may shoot his opponents on the school grounds, but this is much more likely to happen when school is not in session.

    So - the school shooter that an armed teacher or staff member is likely to face is a chemically-addled adolescent that wants a dramatic death that makes him or her famous. The knowledge that failure is likely is more of a deterrent than fear of death.

    For this reason I am very much in favor of arming as many responsible and trained adults within the schools as possible.
     
  22. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    School funding is initially done on the local level. That said, schools can request federal assistance. However, even if they do request aid, it's requested of the House who has the purse strings as part of the separation of powers. POTUS can suggest, but he doesn't have the federal money belt.

    It doesn't matter how many teachers are armed if no one knows who is and who isn't. The Colorado theater shooter bypassed a couple of theaters to go to the one that advertised itself as a gun free zone. The idea that someone else besides a potential shooter is armed is something of a deterrent.

    What's sad is that here in Broward County, site of the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas shooting over 18 months ago, many of the easy to implement responses haven't been done. Doors around the schools are left unlocked. Wouldn't cost anything to simply lock side and back doors after school starts. Hasn't been done. They still have a commission studying it. The sheriff whose men weren't communicating with other responders and was removed by the new governor is trying to get back his job.
    My point is that they don't seem to be instituting even the simplest things to try to make schools safer. Debating whys and what ifs aren't productive in the immediate future but it seems like most of the debate is centering on finger pointing and promoting individual political agendas.
     
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  23. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    Yep.
    Fixing the security holes around the schools would be admitting that the shooting is partially the fault of the school's policies, not solely the fault of the NRA and the Gun Culture.

    Intolerable - they'd probably prefer another shooting.
     
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  24. Madcap_Magician

    Madcap_Magician Member

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    Honestly I think the biggest reason we haven't seen that happen again is only in small part because of cockpit hardening and in large part simply because now with airplane hijackings everyone knows the plane is a potential missile and they will die if they don't fight and win. Before 9/11, when the stereotypical hijacking meant the hijackers had some sort of political or economic ransom demand + a flight to Cuba, the reasonable thing for passengers to do was to sit tight, wait for the plane to land, and then wait out the negotiations.

    After 9/11, everyone knows they can no longer do that. We literally saw that shift happen on 9/11, and passengers finding out about the WTC hits are why the passengers on United 93 fought back and prevented the same thing from happening with their airplane. Because of this attitude shift, it's unlikely that the 9/11 attack could ever be repeated in the same way. And that had almost nothing to do with security theater or improvements, just the changed mindset of the potential victims.
     
  25. Basura Blanca

    Basura Blanca Member

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    If we agree that school shootings are incredibly rare in the big picture (and they are), we undermine our own best talking point by spitballing all these solutions. What gets said here doesn't really matter. But when what gets said here bleeds into the national debate, we do ourselves a disservice by not being consistent. The risk of this backfiring is greater than any potential gains. My objection to the debate over arming school staff isn't that it might not be practical at some point, somewhere, in some infinitesimally rare circumstance. It's not that, really; it's that it's not in line with the rationale that these events don't occur very often, and therefore is a solution in search of a problem.

    The same thing happened with mental health. We and our opponents came to a consensus, in spite of scientific evidence that said otherwise, that mentally ill people were the problem and that we needed to find a way to keep them from accessing guns. What we got from that was a massive movement pushing for "red flag" type laws.

    The moral here is to be careful with our rhetoric.
     
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