New to Glocks

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by jeffmoline, Aug 29, 2009.

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  1. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    You missed the point. Advising someone to leave their gun at home if they don't meet some internet commando's idea of tactical-enough is silly, whether it is because the person might not "always have the time to draw and chamber a round" or because the person might not "always have the time to draw."

    People should carry the way that is comfortable for them. But whatever way they choose to carry, having a gun is still better than not having one.

    I am reasonably certain that I have never posted anything about tire failures on THR.
     
  2. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    I tend to agree.

    Though I don't personally care for Glocks, there are a number of other firearms without a manual/external safety or even a safety at all.

    Revolvers and some Sig firearms spring to mind.
     
  3. practicaltactical

    practicaltactical Member

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    I didn't know there was any other way to carry a gun :). (Regarding one in the chamber)
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  4. gallo

    gallo Member

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    The point I'm trying to make is that I could careless if a thug or careless person blows his nuts away. I'm concerned about me being the recipient of someone else negligent discharge. A grip safety goes a long way in preventing this.

    The XD is inherently safer because of its mechanical design regardless of its human use.

    On the way back from work, I stopped at Academy and handled a Glock. The epitome of form following function, a Glock's brutal reliability and functional efficiency, rightly so, dwarf its butt ugly aesthetics. The minimalist in me loves their austere simplicity, but I doubt I'll ever carry one.
     
  5. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    Since we are now talking about thugs and their proficiency with firearms, I think I will leave this here:
     
  6. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    Link to the report REAPER4206969? Is that an article or an actual report from the FBI?
     
  7. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    REAPER, I'm sure many thugs are quite skilled at using firearms to massacre people. However, what people have been talking about here is a thug's disregard to safety and how a particular gun may be inherently safer.

    It's highly improbable that a thug would practice the Four Safety Rules when they disregard the penal code. A thug may be quicker in a gun fight partly because a thug disregards safety, not because they train more. I doubt they do. The finger is ON the trigger; the muzzle is sweeping everything; and the thug is shooting without regard to what's behind the victim. I admit that this idea is not based any empirical evidence, but it seems logical.

    What's interesting about that report is that it seems to be prepared by law enforcement (FBI) for law enforcement. The report is basically saying that thugs are quite skilled and that you (law enforcement) need to be aware and skilled as well. I imagine an entirely different report, with an entirely different tone, would be prepared by law enforcement for the general public. I highly doubt the FBI would encourage law abiding citizens to counter thugs by using more skill in the use of firearms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  8. Evela

    Evela member

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    A Quick and Dirty Summary

    Chamber or unchambered is a choice. The professional will often (but not always) prefer the former. The inexperienced CCW user will often (but not always) prefer the latter.

    Choosing requires consideration of risk/reward. In any gunowner's life the likelihood of being hurt or killed, or of killing a loved one by accidental or negligent discharge is far, far, FAR higher than than by being unable to draw or fire in a hand-to-hand situation. Keep in mind the professional is FAR more likely to engage in close combat: he/she seeks out BG's, stops them, touches them. LE seeks out trouble, and often finds what he's looking for.

    Not true for the common CCF carrier, who just wants "pretty good protection". He/she is NOT going to approach trouble, in fact will work very hard to have awareness and get away, call 911. In almost all cases, he/she will have time to retreat, draw and brandish if they must. And will find the Israeli method effective 99% of the time.

    OTOH, AD/ND - which does happen to professionals too - is a VERY big deal for the new, casual CCW carrier. The chance of accidentally being shot or shooting an innocent with your gun is so much higher that it's not just not in the same ballpark, it's not even in the same universe. The risk is relatively huge in comparison and that is of great and legitimate concern to the common carrier.

    The Israeli method - with its unchambered gun - is a VERY safe alternative to locked and loaded insofar as AD's/ND's.

    Here's what I'd say to the common carrier:

    In all truth, you will probably never even have to draw your gun on a human being. Most of the time you'll be able to avoid trouble and walk or run away. But if even in that very rare case you do feel forced to draw your gun, it is highly unlikely you will have to fire it. And even if you do have to shoot your gun in true self defense, it is highly likely you'll have the time to do, repeatedly.

    Now I must be honest, there is a very, very small chance you may be surprised and end up in actual or immediate hand-to-hand combat where you can't draw or fire your gun. You are not really prepared for this. If you draw your gun there's a big chance it will be taken away from you, and the first thing the BG is gonna do is to pull the trigger. This might be the one time you don't want to expose your gun. Better to escape somehow, then draw it.

    The bottom line is this my friend. By using the Israeli method you will be protected in all but the rarest circumstance, a circumstance you are little prepared to handle anyway, and in a situation where any weapon you use may well be used against you. At the same time you will greatly reduce the very real, incredibly more likely tragedy of an accidental discharge that will hurt or kill you, or a loved one.

    And another thing for those who carry guns with safeties: if you ever do have to draw and fire, you will suffer a level of stress and panic that you can't imagine. You may feel faint, go blank, your hands will shake and you will lose fine motor skills - the kind that activating a safety requires. You will be confused. Is it on, is it off? Which gun am I carrying, the one where it's up, or the one where it's down? Is the safety already off? Did I forget to actually load the chamber? This is a time where you don't want to be concerned with safeties or whether the chamber really is loaded.

    The Israeli draw is a good alternative that you should consider.

    It uses gross motor skills that are not likely to fail under stress. You will not have to fumble with safeties. You will simply draw, load and fire, just as fast. Best of all, this is a simple skill that has been taught to millions of ordinary citizens - men and women - and that is known to be fast, safe and reliable under stress.

    Most new carriers can learn to draw, rack and fire 3 to the head (at close range) in 1.5 seconds or less, fast enough.

    A professional is different. What you may never face, he faces everyday. And he is trained to take the risks. He may well have to draw and fire in a close combat situation. He knows how to retain his gun. He has a backup gun. He has Mace. He has a fighting knife. He has a comealong. And often even a bulletproof vest.

    He is paid and trained to take risks that you will do your best to avoid. He goes forward when you should go back. As it should be. He may choose to carry locked and loaded - take the risks of an AD/ND - because is he paid and prepared to do so. You are not and probably will never, ever be.

    My friend, this is not a pretty picture. With your inexperience you may choose to carry "locked and loaded" cause that's all you've heard from the forum gunslingers. You may choose to risk fumbling under stress, plus the GREATLY increased chance of an accidental discharge. If you do draw your gun in close combat and even manage to make it off safe, you face the very real risk of being disarmed and being shot with your own gun.

    Or you can choose the Israeli method, which greatly improves your chances of survival overall from all causes, accidental or intentional. Do know that you're not alone - although the method was designed for easy and reliable use by millions of ordinary citizens, more and more professionals carry this way too.

    If you hear that "locked and loaded" is the ONLY way, you have been badly misinformed. Don't be intimidated into a practice that for the inexperienced CCW carrier is intimidating in itself. Some of you - rightfully - are bothered by the increased accidental risks of "locked and loaded" to the extent that you don't carry, and choose to leave your gun at the bedside for HD.

    Don't let this intimidation stop you from carrying!

    The Israeli method will allow you to carry in relative safety from accidents, but still retain the ability to engage your gun very quickly, reliably and effectively in all the sensible conditions in which you choose to use it. It is forgiving, reliable and safe even when you may be scared. A great relief! If you choose this method you will be in good company.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
  9. Larry Ashcraft

    Larry Ashcraft Moderator Staff Member

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    Evela,

    Instead of telling our members that they are unprepared as compared to the "professionals" you keep referring to, and how we are "not professional enough" to be handling actual firing weapons, how about you amble along to some forum where "I'm too untrained and unprepared to live in the modern world" is the norm, and spout your nonsense there?

    Mmmmkay?
     
  10. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    Round 2: Return of the Mall Ninja Evela.

    Welcome back Mall Ninja Evela. My response to your opinion is the same as it was before:

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/
    So how would you advise someone who carries a revolver Evela? I guess they should do the "Israeli Moon Clip" maneuver eh?


    And finally, Massad Ayoob does like the Israeli Method. This is a method for chambering a round, not for drawing your firearm in a crazy movie western style showdown.

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html


    Remember Evela, AD is a result of not following the FOUR RULES. And it does not matter if you carry chambered or not, if you do not follow the FOUR RULES at all times, you'll likely have an AD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
  11. practicaltactical

    practicaltactical Member

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    I know ND's happen, but a healthy dose of respect for an inherently dangerous tool goes a long way. I think the risk is being overstated.
     
  12. ChCx2744

    ChCx2744 Member

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    Glocks should always be in condition zero...Although I guess Glocks can not even fall under the category lol...
     
  13. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    First, I'm going to be stating an opinion, so let me tell you all my qualifications for my opinion. I've had classes in the defensive use of handguns from Bennie Cooley (http://www.benniecooley.com/), Gunsite (http://www.gunsite.com/ ), the Walt Marshall people ( http://www.awt-co.com/), Louis Awerbuck (http://www.yfainc.com/ ), and Massad Ayoob (http://www.ayoob.com/ ). All of these trainers/schools teach one to carry his sidearm with a round in the chamber. I've also competed in USPSA. And I'm an NRA Certified Instructor in Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Home Firearm Safety and Shotgun.

    I have no idea what Evela's qualifications for his opinion are.

    Okay, here's the bottom line. If you carry without a round in the chamber, you will either need two hands to make the gun ready for use or need to figure out how to chamber a round with only one hand. The latter can be done, but it is difficult and slow.

    It is, in fact, extremely unlikely that you will ever need to use your gun in self defense. Most people will live their entire lives without ever having a violent encounter. But, based on my training, it's my belief that if you do need your gun, there is a strong possibility that you will need it quickly. Criminals like the element of surprise.

    In any case, you can not predict how your particular emergency, if you ever have one, will arise. Maybe you'll have some time to make your pistol ready, and maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have both hands available, and maybe you won't. In addition, if you need your gun and need it quickly, the consequences to you of not being able to make it ready quickly could be horrible. In other words, there may be a small chance of an emergency, but if you can not respond appropriately and timely, your outcome will almost certainly be very, very bad for you.

    Of course, if you are going to carry a gun at all, it's important to get good training and practice well. Training shows you what to practice.

    A violent encounter is a very high stress situation. Good training and diligent practice will help prepare you to respond effectively in a high stress situation. In a high stress situation, one defaults to his level of training.

    As for me, I will not count on having both hands available in an emergency, so I carry my gun with a round in the chamber.
     
  14. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
  15. Larry Ashcraft

    Larry Ashcraft Moderator Staff Member

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    Words of wisdom.
     
  16. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not the correct term. There is no reasonable correspondence between condition zero on a 1911 and a Glock with a chambered round, the biggest difference is that a condition zero 1911 mainspring has enough stored energy to fire the gun, the partially tensioned Glock mainspring does not.
    Based on analysis of the last two ISHOT matches (over 20,000 rounds downrange through various autopistols) it appears that manually chambering a round is one of the most jam-prone operations that is performed on a pistol that is not experiencing some obvious maintenance problem.

    In the guns that didn't have obvious issues (ammunition problems, magazine issues, etc.) manually chambering a round caused about half of the malfunctions while all other causes accounted for the other half.

    I believe it is inadvisable to leave the task of chambering a round until stress is high, two hands may not be available for the operation and time may be critical. It's obviously already an error-prone operation, trying to do it under stress and under other possible handicaps such as time or injury is not going to help anything.

    Finally, when one considers that by chambering a round ahead of time he is likely cutting his chances of having a malfunction in a self-defense scenario in HALF, the solution is obvious.
     
  17. massad ayoob

    massad ayoob Member

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    Just to clarify...

    As cited earlier by Boba Fett, I like the Israeli method of slide manipulation for semiautomatic pistols, but do not care for the concept of carrying the semiautomatic pistol with an empty chamber, for the many reasons other posters here have put forth.

    Let's not forget that when the Israelis went with chamber empty protocol in mid-20th century, many of their wide variety of pistols were not drop-safe with a round in the chamber. US police don't carry such guns today as a rule, nor do the wiser of the armed citizenry, so that motive for empty chamber carry is usually not a factor in the discussion today.
     
  18. Evela

    Evela member

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    Mas, a sincere thanks for your clarification on your personal preferences (a) for the Israeli method for efficient racking and (b) for carrying chambered. Your preferences for the Isoscoles stance, the thumb pinch "crush" grip and the NY#1 trigger are also noted.

    There are, of course, differing viewpoints on all of these, although I personally agree with you on most of your positions. Again, thanks especially for confirming my citation of you in re the superiority of the Israeli method over the American method insofar as efficient racking - an essential component of the Israeli method.

    **********

    And from JohnK...

    It's fair to say that those who actually practice the Israeli method become very skilled at the Israeli rack. Compare to those who carry "locked and loaded" who really don't rack nearly as much, and accordingly aren't as good at it. Please note that Ayoob favors the Israeli rack for a number of reasons, including safety, reliability and ease of performance - even for those who lack brute strength. Since there are no citations, I'd have to guess that most of the failurers occured using the typical, overhand American saddle method.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  19. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    They occurred both when the slide was manually racked (using various techniques, not just the "saddle method") and when the slide release was used. Using the slide release seemed slightly less reliable than manually racking the slide.
    I'm sure they do, and a person can practice to become very skilled at most anything if he has the time, dedication and inclination. I've seen people who are amazingly skilled with a single action revolver to the point that they could EASILY outshoot all but the world's very best shooters but that doesn't mean we should advocate that everyone take up the single action revolver simply because it's POSSIBLE to become very skilled with a lot of practice.

    The point is that the act of chambering the initial round from the magazine, regardless of how it's done, accounts for more malfunctions than any other single issue*. In fact, it accounts for as many as all the other issues combined. (*Given the caveat that we're not talking about guns with obvious issues such as poor quality ammunition, faulty magazines, etc.)

    It simply doesn't make sense to put off a malfunction prone operation until a time when stress is high, time may be critical and a do-over is very likely not an option.

    When one adds in the reasonable chance of not having two hands free to perform the operation, the odds of a malfunction during the manual chambering goes up as does the difficulty of clearing the malfunction. And, of course it is not going to help with any time constraints.

    If you have a gun that is not designed to be drop-safe then chamber empty carry makes sense. Otherwise it's very difficult to justify.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  20. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    When faced with overwhelming evidence and common sense that contradicts your opinions, you simply try to use different terms to confuse people?

    Where did this "Israeli Rack" term come from? "...those who actually practice the Israeli method become very skilled at the Israeli rack." That sounds like you are saying that those who practice chambering with the Israeli Method are skilled at using the Israeli Method.

    Or have you now renamed your "Israeli Draw" to "Israeli Rack?" Sounds like it to me.

    "Israeli Rack" is your term, and to my knowledge has not been used by Mr. Ayoob.

    How does carrying "locked and cocked" have anything to do with what JohnKSa was saying? He was talking about tournaments/matches in your quote, not about someone carrying unchambered.

    JohnKSa went on to say that
    And no matter how much you practice, chambering a round is the most likely point of failure in your reckless method of carrying. To once again re-quote Mr. Ayoob,



    One final question for you Evela. I've asked it a couple of times, yet you seem to avoid it.

    How would you "advise" someone to carry a revolver?

    Should they keep it unloaded until danger appears and then "quickly" moon clip their rounds? Maybe if they practice it enough they can get it down to 0.3 seconds, right? Maybe if they practice enough they won't have to use two hands, right?

    Or maybe they should take their 5 or 6 shooter and remove a bullet so when the trigger is pulled, nothing happens and you have to pull it again. And to be even safer, remove the bullet that sits behind the hammer, just in case you drop it and by some chance it lands on the hammer and causes the round to go off. So we've reduced our revolver from a 5 or 6 shot to a 3 or 4 shot.
    :neener:
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  21. DougDubya

    DougDubya Member

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    Tell me, Evela - what happens to an operator who breaks his hand, wrist, elbow or arm when he needs to draw, rack and fire using the Israeli method?

    What happens to an otherwise still healthy person with a paralyzed arm who has to carry with the Israeli method?

    What happens to a policeman who, in the course of fighting for his life, ends up with tendons slashed in his hand or forearm while trying to pull his chamber-empty pistol from its holster?

    What happens to an armed citizen who suffers from carpal tunnel syndrome in only one hand who needs a handgun for self defense?

    What happens to a policeman or military operator utilizing one arm to pull an injured civilian or co-worker to safety who has to draw his chamber-empty handgun to continue their defense?

    What happens to a person who needs to hold onto a railing and comes under fire and has to use both hands to bring his weapon into operation?

    Pinned beneath debris?

    Trapped in an automobile after it's been rammed, with the vehicle door restraining one arm?

    Please, say "he racks the slide using his belt or boot heel" because suddenly, you have a firearm with a loaded chamber dug into your side, its muzzle aimed at legs or pointing in an unregulated direction, with the potential to cause yourself more harm than ever, especially since Mr. Ayoob has noted MANY times the sympathetic motion of all the fingers of a hand to curl and close around an object when applying greater than normal force to said object. When said sympathetic trigger finger ends up in the trigger guard and squeezes tightly, we end up with at best, a wasted round of ammunition, and at worst, a severed femoral artery, and a race between an opponent's weapon and arterial blood loss to kill you first. Both would be done within eight seconds.
     
  22. Evela

    Evela member

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    This would be a pretty good description of an inexperienced CCW carrier trying to fumble with his safety - a fine motor skill - at a time it might not be best to draw. Indeed Glocks were designed with what was intended as a slide lock, and not as a slide release with this in mind. Glock's design assumed that the gross motor skill of racking would be much more reliable.

    You still have not provided a link to your sources, which remain unverified and not necessarily relevent. I'd prefer not to speculate.

    Same thing you're gonna do if you don't have one in the chamber, or experience an FTF or FTE, etc.

    Like you I too can list exceptional situations wherein a "locked and loaded" weapon is a liability. As I stated both methods are entirely valid, and each has it's shortcomings in real life. It is important to consider the likelihood of being hurt or killed from all consequences of carrying a gun - both accidental and intentional. Paid professionals and highly experienced practioners differ from inexperienced carriers in skills, relative risks and outcomes.

    Neither approach should be dismissed outright. It is truly impossible, often impractical and sometimes downright dangerous to attempt to prepare for absolutely any and every possibility. Each choice has its price. I simply believe that the risk/reward calculus - for me, and for many ordinary CCW carriers - favors the Israeli method.

    Sorry if I confused you. The Israeli method of racking, called "jacking" by Ayoob is actually a modified version of what most of us consider the "slingshot" method. In the Israeli rack, the gun is tilted toward the weak side to various degrees depending on the instructor. Not only does this make the rack easier, faster and more reliable, it is an essential part of the Israeli Draw wherein the rack occurs as the gun is moving forward. It is not a separate step, as ordinary racking (slingshot or saddle) is. The Israel (tilted slingshot) rack also serves to clear the gun from FTE's, etc. The advantage of this is that the technique remains the same and is multipurpose.

    In one of Ayoob's articles, he absolutely refers to the Israeli racking method, which he demonstrates with a picture, captioned:

    Those who use the Israeli method tend to become extremely skilled at it, as the racking is a normal part of draw practice (which is actually draw-rack-fire). Those who carry locked and loaded do not include the rack and simply practice draw and fire - and accordingly are not nearly as proficient in racking.

    We all tend to get very good at what we do, and for the Israeli practioner, draw-rack-fire becomes second nature (not to mention clearing). New students learn to do that and deliver three shots to the head in 1.5 seconds.

    I do understand that most of you do not practice the Israeli method, and it's really unfair of me to expect you to really understand or appreciate its real value and applications.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  23. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    Evela, go back and read all the posts. It seems like you're ignoring quite a few, or you're just joking around.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  24. Boba Fett

    Boba Fett Member

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    Completely the opposite of what Massad Ayoob has said.

    Wow. There's lies, damn lies, and then there's Evela's lies. What amazing piece of distortion from what Massad Ayoob actually said.

    BUT IT REQUIRES TWO HANDS!



    Round and round we go, when Evela will stop no one knows...

    *Sigh* Well Evela, you've manage to completely distort, outright lie, and obfuscate what each THR member AND Massad Ayoob has said to you. Ever consider being a politician? You'd fit right in... :cuss:

    Apparently reasoned discourse is not possible with you. But such is to be expected from Mall Ninjas.

    Since that is the case, I'd suggest that the moderators lock this thread and delete the obviously erroneous and dangerous remarks by Evela. Kind of like they did on the other thread you posted this crap in. Your posts are dangerous to those who might read them and not know any better.



    Bottom line for carrying: Practice the FOUR RULES of firearms safety at all times, have a good holster, become familiar with your firearm, practice a reasonable and consistent amount, carry quality ammunition you know works in your firearm, and don't listen to Evela. If you do those things, you have nothing to fear about carrying a chambered firearm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  25. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    This is how the thumb safety on a 1911 is disengaged during the draw stroke:

    1] With a little practice, one's thumb will naturally fall on the top of the thumb safety when assuming the firing grip. One can do that easily whether one shoots with a high thumb or a low thumb.

    [2] As the gun is drawn and rotated toward the target, the thumb on top of the safety simply presses downward, thus disengaging the thumb safety. (Of course the trigger finger is off the trigger and indexed on the frame.)

    Please explain how pressing down on the thumb safety is a fine motor skill? Of course proper management of the safety, just as the Israeli draw, requires training and practice.

    But not necessarily on the draw stroke in preparation for firing. Massad Ayoob has written (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/ )
    Please do so. I'm curious.

    What makes you think that? We regularly rack the slide when charging the chamber, or if we use the sling shot method to drop the slide when loading from slide lock, or when performing "tap-rack" drills, or when clearing our weapons.

    If you mean grasping the slide with the thumb and index finger for the purpose of racking the slide, I indeed have used it for years, even before Mas demonstrated it for in his class. But of course I don't use it on the draw stroke to chamber a round. When I draw my gun, there's already a round in the chamber (put there by racking the slide).

    But we also understand that you apparently have little practical firearms training, so it's probably unfair of us to expect you to know better.
     
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