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New twist on the Tueller drill!

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Bob F., Mar 8, 2006.

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  1. Bob F.

    Bob F. Member

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    Read an article re: Mountain Lions, maybe in "Field & Stream". Says a cougar can do 45 feet in a single leap! 15 Yds!! Not the 21'=7yds we're accustomed to but twice as much (and I'm guessing, quicker and more shock value).
    And they're more common all the time. Of course, DNR says there are NO Mountain Lions in WV, but they are protected

    Stay safe.
    Bob
     
  2. rero360

    rero360 Member

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    the DEC says the same thing about here in NY, but they're here, I've seen tracks in my back yard, neighbors have seen one at their pond, I wouldn't mind getting a shot at one and getting it mounted, too bad it would be illegal to do so.
     
  3. 'Card

    'Card Member

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    I saw one at a distance while deer hunting in Fayette County, WV about 8 years ago. Pretty amazing thing to see, to be honest. He was climbing up an old strip mine high-wall... when he moved it was so fluid it was like watching liquid fur flowing uphill.

    I've always thought that with the WV deer population booming the way it was in the last few years, that they'd really start becoming more common there - but the herd's population growth has stabilized or actually dropped now according to some people, so I guess that didn't happen.
     
  4. 280PLUS

    280PLUS Member

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    I wonder what the "Tueller Time" or "Tueller Distance" is for a ~ medium sized dog...
     
  5. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    We have mountain lions in the city. Probably because we have so many large and stupid rabbits in the city. The cats don't attack people, afaik. One guy I work with saw one in the grounds 100 feet away, and it hopped away from him onto a wall. The only reason it didn't run away, most likely, is because it had a rabbit cornered (he left the cat and rabbit alone to work it out).
     
  6. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

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    Mountain lions can attack people just like wild boars or badgers can also. I would not waste time worrying about it myself since the odds are pretty low. In fact alot more people are killied by bees every year than bears, cougars, etc combined. We did have a woman here in Oregon killed by one recently while biking. Never go into the woods alone if you want to be safe. I will never understand why people would want to kill and mount one. What would it prove? All it would accomplish in mind is killing a majestic animal and making nature a little poorer for it.
     
  7. Knob Creeker

    Knob Creeker Member

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    Well the most important reason is for population control. Just like any other animal, the population needs to be kept at a certain level for the safety of humans and for the health and safety of the cougars themselves. If the population of mountain lions grows too large (in Oregon it is currently above 5000 compared to the California population estimated to be 4000-6000) it will have a detrimental effect on the population of deer, elk, and other prey species. When they can no longer find their normal meal, they seek similar sized mammals to prey on, including domestic animals and people. With a larger cougar population, there is also a greater probability that humans will encounter them in non-rural areas. Hunting is the best way to control their numbers because it stabilizes the population in a regulated manner. I don’t advocate poaching or over hunting and that is why the fish and wildlife agencies were created. They use population counts to develop rules governing how many animals can be harvested, what areas they can be hunted in, and what age and sex can be killed.

    If you hunt and kill something you should waste as little of the animal as possible. I have never heard of any one eating a mountain lion, but I’m sure there are those that do. The skin is usually mounted so that it can be enjoyed long after the lion would have died from natural causes, had it not been killed by the hunter. (Although I think a cougar fur jacket would be much nicer!)

    It is not about proving anything. Hunting is not about that to anyone who engages in it; only to those who do not understand it and are not educated about its importance to wildlife management. Hunting accomplishes much more than ‘killing a majestic animal and making nature a little poorer’, in fact it creates an ecological balance that makes it possible for humans and cougars to coexist.
     
  8. Vitamin G

    Vitamin G Member

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    Yes, and my living room a little richer for it :evil:



    (coming from the guy who doesn't even hunt deer or geese)
     
  9. Browns Fan

    Browns Fan Member

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    +1 Vitamin G!

    Quote:
    "the DEC says the same thing about here in NY, but they're here, I've seen tracks in my back yard, neighbors have seen one at their pond, I wouldn't mind getting a shot at one and getting it mounted, too bad it would be illegal to do so."

    Why is it illegal to kill and mount something that is not suppose to exist in the first place?:banghead:
     
  10. rero360

    rero360 Member

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    good point, they may have one of those radio transmitter devises. like I said haven't seen one yet, but I do think they are amazing creatures and if I ever were to kill one I would mount it to preserve its beauty. I have heard of people eating the meat, claim its a little sweet, I think I'd try it.

    to make it all legal, just got to yell "its coming right for us!" :evil:
     
  11. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    My uncle shot one that had been around his farm. He finally had a rifle when the cougar was around, and though the first shot hit the dirt in front of the cat it didn't move. 2nd got him, and uncle proudly took it to a taxidermist to be mounted. Taxidermist said he needed the paperwork, so uncle called fish and game for some papers:) Fish and game were RIGHT over, and investigated the whole incident. They took the cat (out of his freezer) and took pictures of the farm, and the only reason my uncle got off was because he had lambs. Only larger animals, aiui, and he would have been penalized.

    Our premier said in public once, "Shoot, shovel, and shut up." In an expanding bureaucracy that might be the only way left for honest farmers.
     
  12. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

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    I can understand killing to control population. However I have never seen anything yet to say the cougars are over-populated. I always see the problem as being territiry incroachment. I may be wrong since I have done no research yet myself. It is the mounting I have a problem with. What does this accomplish. I do not see it as a testimony to anything other than being able to pull a trigger on a weapon made by someone else. Now if you mounted one that still had the teeth marks on it from where you wrestled it to the ground and chewed out it's jugular vien with your bare teeth, that would be a testimate.
     
  13. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    I love how this argument is used about "majestic" animals, but never cows, chickens, dung beetles, wasps, etc.

    So Nature is only poorer if we shoot cute animals and not ugly ones?
     
  14. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Why? So you can have someone to outrun? :D

    As the mountain bikers in California have been busy proving, being in a wilderness area without effective means of protection against things with fur-n-fangs simply means that you're willing to be a meal. Having more than one of you there simply gives the critter more to snack on, if recent reports from 2003-2005 are any indication. :rolleyes:

    I have this debate with my wife (the woman who's been a Dallas zookeeper volunteer for over a decade) all the time. She tells me that my hunting is bad because it kills pretty animals roaming about in natural habitats, but thinks that eating steak every day is OK because she only eats ugly animals that were raised in captivity. The pretty ones roaming around in the wilds are somehow 'worth more' than those that were not. :confused:

    Would I kill a cat? Sure I would, if I felt that in any way, shape, or form that me or mine were threatened by it. Hopefully, I wouldn't come to that decision lightly, but in the end the cat is no more 'important' than the Russian boar shoulder that my family ate on for dinner last night.
     
  15. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Cougar roast cooked up in a crock pot is some real fine eatin'. Hard to tell the difference between roast cat and a good pork roast.:)
    Biker
     
  16. XLMiguel

    XLMiguel Member

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    Cats can jump! My boy Jake can stand about a foot away from the fridge and jump to the top (approx 5'9") in one leap, or can launch from the back of my chair to the couch about 10' away easily. He weights about 12-13 lbs. and is about 11" at the shoulder.

    The 7-10 yards allowed for a person in teh Tueller drill should probably at least be tripled for a big dog or mountain lion. By the time you see 'em coming (esp. with the cat), you've got a problem -

    Biker - I had a flank steak of African lion in Grand Mariner sauce once - it was very tasty, but tough - I guess the crock pot would take care of that.
     
  17. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Mike
    A crock pot could make my second mother in law tender, and that's sayin' something.;)
    Biker
     
  18. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    I think they're majestic

    and being that I'm mostly vegetarian I wouldn't go hunting one.
    but after reading this thread I would consider any mtn lion that isn't leaving to be a threat.
    My last cat, motorhead ,could really fight if he needed to.
     
  19. Biker

    Biker Member

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    From my somewhat limited experience with cougar, if you can see it, you don't have much to worry about, generally speaking.
    It's the one above and behind you that will get ya.
    Biker
     
  20. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

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    TexasSIGman, there is a vast difference between killing a vastly abundant animal for food that was bred to be food and killing a wild and declining animal for sport. I am sure you did not need me to tell you that though. :)
     
  21. 'Card

    'Card Member

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    If I ever shot a cougar I'd definitely want to have it mounted, but I can't really think of a good reason to shoot one other than protecting livestock - and I don't have any livestock.

    When I saw that one climbing the high wall in WV, I was watching him through my scope with the crosshairs on him. Would have been an easy shot, but I didn't take it.

    To tell you the truth, I really just enjoyed the experience for what it was - a rare glimpse of a rare (in WV, anyway) beautiful animal, undisturbed in his natural element. Killing him would have kind of ruined it, I think.

    I guess if they were a common sight for me in the woods then I might feel differently about it. I used to feel the same way on the rare occasions when I'd see a bear, but now that their population is booming in WV and I'm seeing them more often, the experience is a little less special, and the urge to pull the trigger is a little stronger. :)
     
  22. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

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    Exactely...that is why I always say the best bear defense is a slower, plumper, and juicer friend. :D
     
  23. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    And there's the problem. Who decides when a species is "declining"?

    An interesting read on the subject:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/Popular/mtnlions.html

    The bottom line of this report:

    This was a 1989 study but follow ups have not seen a decline in the rate of overpopulation of the kitty cats.

    These "majestic" animals are headed towards severe overpopulation and are beginning to damage the food chain of other species.

    (This particular example is California, but similar studies exist in other areas)

    A Colorado perspective:

     
  24. Knob Creeker

    Knob Creeker Member

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    I still think your looking at this whole concept from a very narrow viewpoint. I will agree with you that there are some hunters who like to mount their kill for bragging rights and to make them feel they have conquered nature. I believe these might be the folks you are talking about. It is important that you know not all hunters are motivated by this concept. The majority of them mount stuff so that they can view it and enjoy its beauty. It’s kinda like fine art. There are collectors who buy paintings so they can show them off to all their snooty friends as a monetary statement. A way of showing everyone how much money they can afford to just throw around. There are other collectors, I would think the majority, who buy paintings because they really enjoy them. They might get a feeling of stimulation, wonder, or pleasure from a work, the same emotions some would experience when looking at an animal mount or touching a fur rug.

    I do not condone killing ‘a wild and declining animal for sport’, but we are not talking about shooting a Mountain Gorilla, snow leopard, or a black rhino. In some places the number of mountain lions is decreasing, but in other places like Oregon, the population is increasing rapidly. I wouldn’t go trying to kill a mountain lion here in Kentucky because their numbers are so small that the Government claims them as extinct, but I would have no problem killing one in Oregon where biologists have determined that the population is increasing and controlled hunting would not have any adverse effects.

    As for animals bred for food, I kinda think they are all here for us to eat. If you’re a biblical person why else do you think they were put on this planet? “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you…” One can also look at evolution and find that humans have gotten to the top of the food chain. Although cougars are not raised for food like cattle, nature has bred them for the consumption of the next predator in line and as far as I can tell, only humans and other mountain lions fit that position in North America.
     
  25. middy

    middy Member

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    Someone needs to lay off the Oprah for a while... :rolleyes:
     
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