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New York Ballistic Database Firing Blanks?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by P95Carry, Jun 4, 2004.

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  1. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    Fron NRA-ILA today ......

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    New York Ballistic Database Firing Blanks?
    A database designed to match handguns in New York state to crime scene
    evidence has not solved a crime more than three years after its debut.

    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/w...un03,0,6234238.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire
    Don't need to comment much on this except ......
    And where I ask is the logic in that? So - every state has one?? Big deal .. it'll still be a highly expensive and near useless tool ...... minimally effective IMO.
     
  2. buy guns

    buy guns Member

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    ballistics can only match shells to a type of gun and not a specific gun right?
     
  3. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    ''In theory'' ....... a shell could be matched. By virtue of distinctive impressions made due to extractor claw ... ejector and firing pin indent.

    In practice .. I have always seen this as highly improbable. It takes little skill to alter the profile of any of these cvomponents ... so a BG could probably make enough chganges to throw the process. Sufficient even to perhaps obscure the gun type.

    Whatever .... it is a non-cost effective debacle IMO. Sounds good when the legislators decide it's a ''great idea'' .. keeps the Brady crew, et al, happy I guess.:rolleyes:
     
  4. jimpeel

    jimpeel Member

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    California -- yes CALIFORNIA -- as PC and lame as they are on firearms knowledge and function rejected ballistic "fingerprinting" (as if firearms have fingers) as a financial boondoggle. They stated that they were rejecting it because of cost, unreliability, and the ability to alter the characteristics by merely firing the weapon.

    Imagine that!
     
  5. SDC

    SDC Member

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    Yes, and no; the IBIS/NIBIN/CoBIS systems simply rank a questioned piece of evidence according to how close it is to something that's already in the database. It's up to a firearms and tool-marks examiner to then take those two pieces of evidence and say either "Yes, these casings/bullets were fired in the same firearm", or "No they weren't." I've seen some matches that were so close that it's simply a formality for an examiner to confirm a match, but others where either the breechface markings or firing-pin imprints had changed to the point where ONLY an examiner would be able to make the call. Because the system can't say "THIS is the gun you're looking for", it's ludicrous to claim that "ballistic fingerprinting" can work the way the antis would like it to; at best, all the system can do is say "Out of these 20 pieces of evidence, these 5 are the closest to the one that you're asking about." If you put every single firearm in the world into a system like this, instead of getting FIVE possibles, you'd be getting 50,000 possibles, which would be impossible for an examiner to go through and weed out anyway.
    You've also got the problem of making sure that the original test samples entered as being from a particular firearm are actually FROM that firearm; this isn't a problem when a crime gun is sent to a lab for testing, but it's a BIG problem at a factory when you're firing hundreds or thousands of identical firearms. In an interesting experiment last year, the Association of Firearms & Toolmarks Examiners / AFTE looked at 15 brand-new pistols that were shipped to a law-enforcement agency WITH their mandated "test" casings; in 12 out of the 15, one or both of the "test casings" WEREN'T EVEN FIRED IN THE PISTOLS THEY WERE SHIPPED WITH.
     
  6. Spot77

    Spot77 Member

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    Ballistic Fingerprinting in Maryland: 4 years, 6 "hits", and ZERO crimes solved.

    The thing that REALLY irks me about this is amount of freakin' tax dollars that are being wasted on this.

    We tried it.
    It doesn't work.
    Now let's nix it.


    Of course the minute ONE CRIME is solved with BF, the anti's and media will be all over it claiming how effective a crime fighting tool it is.
     
  7. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    If it saves only one life you know...:banghead:
     
  8. jimpeel

    jimpeel Member

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    Cost to return means nothing to politicians. If the life of one drug pushing gangbanger who never contributed a dime to society can be saved at a cost of 25 million dollars they will consider it money well spent.
     
  9. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    Indeed Jim but .... who's money!?? The taxpayer's. That money which can be squandered as seen fit ..... instead of spent wisely. :banghead: :(

    We see it - over and over ........
     
  10. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    You obviously don't have what it takes to be a leftist extremist. Here's the right mantra:

    We tried it.
    It didn't work.
    We need to raise taxes.
     
  11. PATH

    PATH Member

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    :( Sigh! The politicians never cease to do stupid things do they!
     
  12. sm

    sm member

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    Standing Wolf is correct...

    you have to throw more money at the problem...
     
  13. Phil in Seattle

    Phil in Seattle Member

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    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/fingerprint.htm

    Here are some useful resources in countering the "ballistic fingerprinting" lies
    By Jeff Chan (with some additions from Syd)


    NSSF Press Release:
    http://www.nssf.org/releases/101602.htm
    http://rkba.org/research/nssf/ballistic-fingerprint.16oct02.txt

    NSSF Ballistic Imaging Fact Sheet:
    http://www.nssf.org/releases/101602_BIFS.htm

    NSSF copy of California State report on Ballistic Fingerprinting:
    http://www.nssf.org/PDF/CA_study.pdf
    http://rkba.org/research/nssf/CA_study.pdf

    NSSF copy of H.R. 3491:
    http://www.nssf.org/PDF/HR3491.pdf
    http://rkba.org/research/nssf/HR3491.pdf

    Lockyer covering up doj report condemning ballistic imaging
    DOJ experts gagged by CA attorney general
    http://www.crpa.org/pressrls110202.html

    California DOJ Follow-Up Report On Ballistic "Fingerprinting" Confirms Technology Not Feasible
    http://www.crpa.org/pressrls011303.html

    Flashbunny.org slideshow, clearly explains problems:
    http://www.flashbunny.org/content/file.19

    Beltway Killer Media Response Kit
    http://www.northbridgetraining.com/beltway/

    How Reliable Is Ballistic Fingerprinting?
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66007,00.html

    Exploiting Mass Murder By Dr. Michael S. Brown
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/19/230622.shtml
    The weaknesses of ballistic fingerprinting
    http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/news/BallisticImaging.htm

    A tough call on gun 'fingerprinting'
    http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_1491884,00.html

    If ballistic fingerprinting worked...
    D.C.-Area Police Know Caliber of Sniper's Bullets, but Gun Remains a Mystery
    http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021023_213.html

    The Hardyville Study on the Effectiveness of Ballistic Fingerprinting
    http://www.sierratimes.com/02/10/21/ar-clairewolfe.htm

    Not So Fast. Ballistic fingerprinting.
    National Review Online. Oct. 23, 2002.
    Dave Kopel with Paul H. Blackman.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel102302.asp

    Does The United States Need A National Database For Ballistic Fingerprints?
    By Stephen P. Halbrook
    Technically, the proposal just isn't feasible as a crime-fighting tool.
    http://www.insightmag.com/news/320579.html/
     
  14. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    If that lot Phil - does not make it obvious what a joke it is --- I'm not sure what will!:p
     
  15. Night Guy

    Night Guy Member

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    IF I were a criminal and I was aware of this so called ballistic fingerprinting database being used in my state, I'd use a revolver and be darn sure I complete my crime without reloading.:scrutiny:
     
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