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Ninth circuit court homemade Machine gun ruling

Discussion in 'Legal' started by jke456, Sep 20, 2004.

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  1. jke456

    jke456 Member

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    howdy all

    anyone have a good link to the Ninth Circuit ruling on the making your own machine gun.....



    thanks

    jon
     
  2. deej

    deej Member

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  3. jke456

    jke456 Member

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    Apropos of nothing, this was the first result produced by typing "9th circuit court homemade machine gun" into google.>>


    sorry to ask instead of searching but my connection speed is 14000kbs which really sux searching for info

    much easier to come ask you all

    if this is a nono or a problem I will stop doing it

    jon
     
  4. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Remember that this hasn't played out completely yet. The Feds have until October 9th to decide whether or not to appeal the decision to the USSC.
     
  5. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    Bubbles:

    Do you think the Feds will appeal, or do you think they are too scared of loosing to try?
     
  6. Foreign Devil

    Foreign Devil Member

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    Given the Supreme Court's refusal to take 2nd amendment cases(including the case of a home made machine gun a couple years ago) I doubt they would take this one.
     
  7. SB88LX

    SB88LX Member

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    So, if 10-9-04 comes to pass with no appeal, we can start modifying away towards full auto?:D
     
  8. Foreign Devil

    Foreign Devil Member

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    NFA rules would still apply.

    The ruling only affects the 9th district - out west. Some states there prohibit class III - Washington for one, I believe.
     
  9. SB88LX

    SB88LX Member

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    I see, well I was happy for a bit.
     
  10. PMDW

    PMDW Member

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    Idaho allows MGs, though.
     
  11. KarlG

    KarlG Member

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    Preface: I am not a legal type, but I can read. Do Iunderstand this ruling correctly?

    I read the Opinion on Findlaw to say that one can make their own machine gun(s) and NOT have the Class III rule apply. This is because because home made machine guns are neither interstate nor commerce, which is the Constitutional jurisdiction under which the Gun Control Act of 1968 was written.

    SB88LX, I suggest that you read the entire Opinion (if you have not). It discusses making your own machine gun, not just assembling parts or modifying an existing gun. It even has a couple of quotes that were emphasized about "unique design".

    Bubbles, Where did the October 9, 2004 date for appeal come from?
     
  12. AZRickD

    AZRickD Member

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    Your state law, if MGs are allowed, would might still require essentially opting into the fed.gov NFA system.

    So, homemade MGs or suppressors might be fine, by the fed.gov, but your state.gov might have issues, even if conventional Class III devices are otherwise legal in your state.

    Rick
     
  13. LAK

    LAK Member

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    OK; so some states have prohibitions on MGs. But none have prohibitions on handguns, nor on semi-auto, pump, bolt or other rifles and shotguns.

    If this ruling is taken on principle, it applies to all types of firearms - not just MGs.
     
  14. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    It's October 8th not 9th...

    http://www.supremecourtus.gov/docket/04a176.htm

    ok so I can't count...

    If the USSC takes this case I'm betting that they don't touch the Second Amendment. They could overturn NFA '34 based on the interstate commerce argument, and leave RKBA out of it.
     
  15. Foreign Devil

    Foreign Devil Member

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    Even if they never mentioned the 2nd amendment but ruled that this use of the ICC is unconstitutional, the effects would be huge.
     
  16. jpIII

    jpIII Member

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    Based on a brief overview, I would agree with that. The implications of the NFA34 being overturned are enormous!!!:what:

    Would this imply that Mg's are legal to make? Or just legal to make in your own state, without going across state lines?

    Arn't grease guns pretty easy to make from stratch?:cool:
     
  17. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Basis for the NFA

    The principle basis of the NFA is not interstate commerce, but the taxing power of the federal government.

    The whole scheme originated in the warped mind of FDR's attorney general, Homer Stille Cummings, famous for the quote, "Show me a man who doesn't want his gun registered and I will show you a man who shouldn't have a gun."

    Cummings, a real fanatic who wanted FDR to be a dictator so he could be the "power behind" him, also cooked up the idea of "packing" the Supreme Court. He has been described both as "a brilliant man" and "a lunatic", characteristics not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    When he was told that a total ban on guns was unconstitutional as being outside the federal authority (being a state matter), Cummings proposed to use the federal tax power to achieve the same thing. His bill would have required registration of all guns and ammunition, and imposed a prohibitive tax on gun and ammunition transfer. Machineguns would be taxed at $10,000 (multiply by 35 for current dollars), pistols at $5000, rifles at $1000, and shotguns at $200. Centerfire ammo would be taxed at $10 per round, and .22 ammunition and shotgun shells at $5 per round, the equvalent of $175 today.

    The taxing scheme would have been, and was intended to be, prohibitive and the equivalent of a total ban on firearms in the nation. What was passed by Congress was essentially today's NFA, with registration and tax on MGs and certain other weapons and devices. For those who believe the Democratic Party's anti-gun stance is recent, there is no doubt that if Congress had passed the bill as introduced, FDR would have signed it with alacrity. FDR, please note, posed as a target shooter and "sportsman" even though he could not walk, a fact that was covered up, with the connivance of the press, for his whole period as president. A famous ad shows him in the prone position on a rifle range, with a Model 1903 Springfield; one can only assume he was physically placed in that pose by others.

    So the entire structure of federal gun control laws as we have it today is really a misuse of taxation, even though control of interstate commerce provides a secondary basis.

    Jim
     
  18. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I knida missed this one slide-in sideways - did you say if an appeal is not heard by the Supremes, that a ruling by the 9th Jerkit Court in SAN FRANCISCO would state homemade machinguns are LEGAL? The most liberal court in the country? Hmm....Sten kits still around? AZ is under then 9th, and Class 3 is legal here...but this sidesteps the whole NFA34? How do you prove the weapon IS homemade? Where is the legal backing for that? Anyone gotten an attorney's professional opinion yet? Believe me, I remember the cheap Sten kits that even came woth the template for the tube reciever, and that would be very cool!!!!!! Wonder if any are still floating around?
     
  19. FNFiveSeven

    FNFiveSeven Member

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    So let's say you live in Idaho. This month, you were allowed to attach a flash suppressor and telescoping stock to your post ban AR. Next month, you'll be able to make your own auto sear? Nice. Seems to me you could even manufacture them for sale within the state so long as you never crossed state lines...
     
  20. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey Jim, I'd be real interested to read any info about Homer from the time period. Seems to me info like that should be spread far and wide.
     
  21. PMDW

    PMDW Member

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    Hmm. May need to move myself back to Idaho. Sure beats Ohio.
     
  22. Deavis

    Deavis Member

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    It may be legal from a federal standpoint but it is the state laws that are going to get you. If the law says an MG is okay as long as it is approved by the ATF, then what are you going to do? I'm curious to see if the ATF accepts the forms when they are sent in (which you do before construction)
     
  23. Selfdfenz

    Selfdfenz Member

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    Amazing!!!!

    Would that it all turn out to be true and in our favor!
    S-
     
  24. publius

    publius Member

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    Is that the way it is, or is the tax scheme the historical basis for federal authority, while the commerce clause provides the modern basis? The very top line in Kozinski's opinion states that it's about the commerce clause. Why only argue the secondary basis, ignoring the primary?
     
  25. sawhitt

    sawhitt Member

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    I may have to move back to Arizona!
     
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