Nitrocellulose laquer and cigaratte paper cartridges.

[Ginormous]

What am I potentially getting myself into here?

I've got a small amount of nitrocellulose lacquer on my bench I've used for numerous small projects previously, primarily as a binder. I'm entertaining using it in minute quantities as an adhesive in my revolver cigarette paper cartridges.

Well, here's the history of that nitrocellulose lacquer: it's the real deal cellulose trinitrate lacquer, derived from a single base smokeless powder (that happened to be no use to me otherwise) and dissolved in pure acetone as a quick evaporative carrier. Waterproofs well, burns like hell, and sticks, like . . .well . . . nitrocellulose lacquer sticks, which is pretty darned good.

My goal is twofold:

1.)to achieve total combustion of the "Elements brand Rice Paper Cigarette 1.25 size" paper cartridge. Not all paper is consumed no matter how delicately I make them. Gummed portions seem to be a particular bear to burn completely

2.)and a more secure adhesion of the bits that I do bind with the lacquer to hold the powder more securely than the natural gum seems to provide.

The ENTIRE paper cartridge WILL NOT coated be with the lacquer, just the seam down the length of the cartridge (likes to break in handling), and the closely cropped hippie twisted ends. A vary minute amount of nitrocellulose will remain once the acetone evaporates.

Is this a workable idea to the perfect paper cartridge? Or is this ever so slight amount of nitrocellulose bound to send me and my firearm to hell in a hand basket?

I have burnt out on death wishes at my age, so serious conversation, suggestions, experiences, etc are earnestly wanted.

 

[Dithsoer]

I've made my paper cartridges that way for years and it works great. I use cigarette papers and just lick the seam. Once the cartridge is completed I use a cotton swab and "paint" a bit of the nitrocellouse laquer on the end that holds the powder, maybe a half inch to an inch. I put none on the full-length seam. I've never had to prick the cartridge through the nipple or do anything else to make it work. Ignition is positive and quick, and there is usually very little if any paper left in the cylinder after firing. Without cleaning the cylinder between shots I just load another cartridge. Rarely will I get a miss-fire, but when I do usually a second cap will set it off.
I have coated fully half of the cartidge before with no problems. Since the laquer acts like a glue, the paper twist in the powder end of the cartridge can be cut very close to the powder charge. I have accidently dropped these cartridges from a height of five feet without them breaking open. I use Tops papers, .375/.380 r.b., 1.0 c.c. of b.p. and .7 c.c.- 1.0 c.c. of cornmeal as a filler.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Hazard Powder made a sort of "cartridge" during the Civil War for anything from revolvers to .58 caliber rifle-muskets. The cartridges were made from black powder mixed with collodion (essentially, nitrocellulose dissolved in alcohol & ether, IIRC), and compressed into a truncated cone shape in a mold. This made for a fairly water-resistant round. No, I personally doubt using nitrocellulose lacquer in small quantities will affect things one way or another. Just don't sue me if I'm wrong...

 

[Ginormous]

This is great news! I had no experience using NC lacquer in a black powder cartridge application. I'll spend this week rolling up a bunch of much tougher, and more resilient paper cartridges for this weekend.

Now I can get over that ingrained image - you know, the one with a case hardened Colt hammer protruding from my forehead . . . .

 

[arcticap]

Making and using it has been described in the "How to make black powder cartridges" thread that's linked within the Black Powder Essentials sticky that's posted at the top of the BP sub-forum page.

I've been making paper cartridges for years but an additional step that I take is to "paint" each finished cartridge with nitrocellulose shellac. This can be easily made by dissolving a spoonful of regular smokeless powder in several spoonfuls of acetone (fingernail polish remover). Depending on the powder used it may take more or less acetone. Once I have a thin syrup I store it in a sealed glass container (the acetone evaporates quickly). Using a small childrens paintbrush I just paint each cartridge with a thin coat of it. Not only does this ensure reliable ignition without the use of a nipple pick, the paper is completely consumed. As an added benefit it also waterproofs them. I have been doing this for years and have never had a failure to fire.

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2810616&postcount=109

 

[Smokin_Gun]

This will work for ya...KNO3 Carts...

Here's where you'd start:

Potassium Nitrate - KNO3 Oxidizer 5.1

Also known as saltpeter, this is commercially used as a diuretic for animals.
It also works as an oxidizing agent in various pyrotechnic mixtures. That is,
when heated it provides the oxygen needed to make the rest of the mixture
burn.

Potassium Potassium
Nitrate Nitrite Oxygen

2KNO ---> 2KNO + O
3 2 2

Here's the process that worked for me the first time...31 sheets 60 mins. with clean up...if married send you wife shoppin' with your credit card.

Took about 40 min. to produce 25 sheets of dried Cumbustable paper.(after testing successfully)

1) Used 3 1/2 tablespoons KNO3 to 1 cup of extremely hot water from the tap. Pour in beeker and thuroughly desolved KNO3.

2) Preheated oven to 250F with window screen and a fish fryer screen to set wet paper on in the oven trays.

3)Using a 8" x 8" brownie pan poured the 1 cup of solution into it... still hot (heated in a pan of hot water on stove)
Useing the pan on a burner to keep solution hot.

4)Wetting the sheets in the pan dunking and submerging them 4-5 times till saturated. Placing them on the screens in the oven.
(no soaking for hours)

5) Papers are dry in 15 min. or so maybe less.

6) Test results Photos ... See PG2

SG


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PG2

The Lab

The Soakin'

Keepin' Solution Hot

The Dryin'

Burn Test

Test Successful

The Product

As you can see I used a local Directory Yellow Pages...in my opinion when dried this paper density is perfect for Revs or Rifles...

Hope you liked it, cause I did...

Smokin' Gun

 

[Ginormous]

Making and using it has been described in the "How to make black powder cartridges" thread that's linked within the Black Powder Essentials sticky that's posted at the top of the BP sub-forum page.

I did an advanced forum search in this group for "nitrocellulose lacquer" before making my post and came up with zilch. It only searches successfully now after my thread's arrival. My apologies for not being psychic this particular weekend.

Additionally, the process for making it was never in question in my mind, but using it in a BP application certainly was. Hence my post.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Your certainly welcome then!

 

[Ginormous]

All I can say Smoking Gun . . . is well, uh, WOW!

Oxidizers in the kitchen are for men of much stouter disposition than me.

This may take a day or two for me to get my brain fully around what I've seen here tonight, heh.

 

[arcticap]

Potassium nitrate can be ordered through local drug stores without any purchasing restrictions.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

One of the pleasures of freedom at home...
Current family at home is a Black Wolf/Shep & Chow 10 yr old male Apollo, a Brown Terrior 10 mo. male Remington, a Black and Tan Rotwielder 8mo. female Gretchen.
And a Cat named Missy, a 7'2" Redtail Boa male(Red), two Cockatiles male and female in the garage...she left them... :O)
So all I get is love no matter what I do, no more flak...HeeHee!
some a my family pics






God Bless the Confederacy...

 

[Dithsoer]

A very important point to keep in mind is that if you decide to completely paint the cartridge with the lacquer make sure that you use PLENTY of lube/grease to seal each cylinder from crossover flame, otherwise every chamber will fire at once. Of course, it's not necessary to completely coat the cartridges in this way but I just wanted to mention this in case you thought of it. I wonder how the 19th century soldier stopped this from happening with his paper cartridges which were made from completely nitrated paper (contrary to popular belief cigarette papers are not nitrated)? He used paper cartridges because of their speed and convenience, especially in the midst of combat, but he would still have had to stop and take the time to grease each chamber. Was there a speed-greaser in use that I'm not aware of?

 

[Ginormous]

If soldiers of 2 centuries ago were issued fully nitrated paper cartridges, it seems BP weapons at the time were already getting a little nitrocellulose "boost" on ignition. Genuinely "caseless" ammo long before the arrival of the H&K G11! Firearms technology has come full circle, likely more than once, but that is a fantastic tidbit of info / trivia.

As far as bullet lube for nitrated paper cartridges goes, I can offer no suggestions other than this: the horrors of war and the immediacy of need in combat offers all kinds of nasty and possibly grisly alternatives. Fallen soldiers may still have been able to give a "piece of their mind" to the enemy thanks to their still breathing comrades ingenuity.

The possibilities are endless and likely were.

 

[Ginormous]

Current family at home is a Black Wolf/Shep & Chow 10 yr old male Apollo, a Brown Terrior 10 mo. male Remington, a Black and Tan Rotwielder 8mo. female Gretchen.
And a Cat named Missy, a 7'2" Redtail Boa male(Red), two Cockatiles male and female in the garage...she left them... :O)
So all I get is love no matter what I do, no more flak...HeeHee!

With a love list like that SG, I am certain the former Mrs. SG is barely, if ever, missed.

Thanks for sharing the cools pics of your children! BTW, Red is going to need a new tub soon, if he keeps growing.

 

[bullseye308]

Well, here's the history of that nitrocellulose lacquer: it's the real deal cellulose trinitrate lacquer, derived from a single base smokeless powder (that happened to be no use to me otherwise) and dissolved in pure acetone as a quick evaporative carrier. Waterproofs well, burns like hell, and sticks, like . . .well . . . nitrocellulose lacquer sticks, which is pretty darned good.

I've been making paper cartridges for years but an additional step that I take is to "paint" each finished cartridge with nitrocellulose shellac. This can be easily made by dissolving a spoonful of regular smokeless powder in several spoonfuls of acetone (fingernail polish remover). Depending on the powder used it may take more or less acetone. Once I have a thin syrup I store it in a sealed glass container (the acetone evaporates quickly). Using a small childrens paintbrush I just paint each cartridge with a thin coat of it. Not only does this ensure reliable ignition without the use of a nipple pick, the paper is completely consumed. As an added benefit it also waterproofs them. I have been doing this for years and have never had a failure to fire.

I want to try this, and I am one of those that need a little more info before I get into something. This is one of those things. Which common powders would fall under "single base smokeless powder" for me to use. Once mixed, do you let it "air" till most of the nail polish remover has evaporated, or how does that work. I would guess if too much evaporates, you could "revive" it with more acetone at a later date? Maybe a pictorial tutorial of the process would be helpful.

Found this....here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder.htm "Today there are single-base and double-base smokeless powders. Single base powders are based on nitrocellulose alone and double base powders contain nitroglycerine in addition to nitrocellulose, adding to its energy. Both types have their advantages and are widely used in small arms ammunition, and both types are available to reloaders. At the time of this writing, Winchester/Olin and Alliant exclusively produce double-base powders, all VihtaVuori and most IMR powders are single-base (700X and 800X are the double-base IMR powders that I know of), and Accurate and Hodgdon offer several powders of each type.
What I have on hand are: (old) Accurate 2460, (old)H4895, Unique, Bullseye, Varget & Pyrodex RS. Which, if any, would be a good candidate? TIA.

 

[Ginormous]

IMR smokeless powders that are single base (meaning contain nitrocellulose only) and appropriate for making NC lacquer all begin with IMR ####, SR ####, PB.

Check the manufacturer's website and MSDS database to determine whether what you have on hand is single-, double-, or triple based.

The process is simple enough, you need a container with a tight threaded cap, acetone from a paint supply store, and your favorite unused single base smokeless powder. Fill container 1/8 full of smokeless powder, add acetone to the half level mark, cap, and shake. Depending on the powder you used, the acetone will either make short work and dissolve the nitrocellulose (smokeless powder, guncotton) pretty quickly, or it may take a few days. Either way, it will eventually dissolve. Viola, NC lacquer! Makes a fine pyrotechnic binder and adhesive, which is what I want to use it for.

For more info on why you might want to use a single base smokeless powder as your source of nitrocellulose, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder goes into more detail about the nasties that are put into double and triple base powders.

 

[RyanM]

I believe all Alliant pistol powders are double-base, and the only IMR pistol/shotgun powders which are double-base are the two Hi-Skor powders.

Should probably stick with a fast-burning single-base pistol powders as a nitrocellulose source, since rifle powders will have all kinds of binders and junk to control the burn rate.

 

[bullseye308]

So for what I have on hand it looks like the Bullseye would be the best choice. Thanks.

 

[Ginormous]

Bullseye I know for a fact is a double base powder. It's probably fine to make your NC lacquer with it, but I personally can do with out the nitroglycerin component.

 

[Dithsoer]

I've used Hp-38 and Bullseye, which contains nitroglycerine in addition to the nitrocellulose. Sure, if the laquer gets a little thick in use, just add more acetone. Once on the cartridges it dries very quickly. I place each painted cartridge bullet down in one of those plastic cartridge boxes such as one can get from Midway. Make sure that they don't touch as they dry because they will stick.
Another way of going about this is to mix potassium nitrate and sugar in equal amounts and dissolving this into as little hot water as is necessary to completely dissolve all of the powder. This, too can be painted on to the finished cartridges to increase their combustibility, however it isn't as effective as the nitrocellulose coating.
I've recently began to dip the tip of the cartridge, just the round ball part, into liquid bullet lube. Not only does this add some lubricant but it also makes the cartridge easier to load (the paper on the r.b. can make the seating of the bullet a little stiff). This also helps to ensure that the twisted end stays closed. My completed round is about 1 1/2 inches long with the back 1/2 inch coated in lacquer and the bullet end coated about 1/4 inch with lube.
They seem to be sturdy as well. I just dropped the same cartridge ten times from a height of five feet with no breakage.

 

[bullseye308]

Never mind. :banghead: Got the single-double thingy mixed up. Can't get to the MSDS on allian't site, and Hodgdon site was no help....
Of the powders I have, which would be the best choice?

 

[Dithsoer]

I would think that just about any of the medium to fast burning pistol powders would work best but I have a hunch that even Hodgen 810 or 5010 would work (almost) as well.
I'll make up a batch with a medium burning rifle powder and see how that works.

 

[RyanM]

Never mind. Got the single-double thingy mixed up. Can't get to the MSDS on allian't site, and Hodgdon site was no help....
Of the powders I have, which would be the best choice?

Accurate's website says clearly which ones are single and which are double, at laest.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/msds.htm

Hodgdon's isn't that bad, you just have to read the actual MSDS.

http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

And I believe that Alliant does not make any single-base pistol powders at all. Hm, their website has changed. You used to be able to look up the nitroglycerine content of each individual powder, like I think Bullseye is actually 50% nitroglycerine by weight.

Hm. I also am fairly sure that Vihtavuori does not make any double-base powders at all.

 

[Oyeboten]

What an interesting discussion...


I suppose indeed, a Nitrocellulose Saurated Seam or Seam and End, of the Paper Cartridge, would add a few FPS to the Bullet, too...


Many old Ping Pong Balls, Screw Driver Handles and other items were Nitrocellulose, and will dissolve in Acetone, also...

 

[Hellgate]

You can buy very affordable amounts of potassium nitrate at your local garden supply store as STUMP REMOVER. It used to be about a buck a pound. Now it is probably 2 bucks a pound. cheap anyway you look at it.