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NJ, Here comes your .50 ban

Discussion in 'Legal' started by 50 Shooter, Nov 14, 2008.

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  1. 50 Shooter

    50 Shooter member

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    You don't have much time as they're going to be hearing/voting on this on MONDAY!!!

    http://fiftycal.org/

    New Jersey Legislature Advances Anti-50 Caliber Threat

    Last week FCI staff joined forces with several other gun rights organizations on the floor of the New Jersey state legislature to prevent the passage of A-2116, a proposed 50 caliber ban. FCI Chairman John Burtt joined Scott Bach, President of the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC) and Bob Viden, NRA Board Member to provide New Jersey legislators with accurate information on the effects A-2116 would have on the community of law abiding gun owners from that state. After two hours of testimony, the New Jersey Assembly Judiciary Committee passed A-2116 (http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/A2500/2116_I1.PDF) by a vote of 5-1.

    As passed, the legislation will ban virtually all firearms .50 caliber and over. While the Committee attempted to address some of the concerns of gun owners and sportsmen, it still bans many popular hunting guns, historical American firearms, and large bore target firearms, based on alleged public safety concerns. Included are historical American firearms and replicas, including those from the Revolutionary War and Civil War eras. The legislation makes the fundamental mistake of banning guns based on the size of the barrel rather than punishing criminal behavior. Proponents of the ban attempted to demonize a whole class of firearms and their owners by claiming the only intent of these firearms is criminal misuse.

    This was the 2nd trip to New Jersey in the past year for FCI to provide figures, evidence and expert testimony to our legislators in an effort to educate them in their responsibilities. The last presentation we gave was before the Assembly Public Safety Committee in 2007 and the bill was passed out of that committee and sent to the Assembly Judiciary Committee because it was ‘admittedly flawed’ and needed substantial revision. At the time of our last presentation I felt reasonably certain the authors of the bill would ask for our input into the bill before bringing it up for consideration in the Judiciary Committee. Not to be!! CEASEFIRENJ (CFNJ) is the only organization being listened to by the NJ Legislature.



    What became abundantly clear as the hearing progressed on Thursday morning was the obvious intent of the legislators to submit a bill to the Assembly floor to ban the .50 BMG. Regardless of how accurate our information was as we responded to the hysterical attacks by CFNJ, it became obvious the legislators had been given instruction by "House Leadership" to pass this bill out of committee.

    Attached is a photograph representatives from CFNJ used during their presentation of their arguments. (a photo of an EDM Arms Mdl 96 .50 BMG) FCI was available to respond to any comments or questions from the committee members, but the only comment we heard was, "civilians don’t have a need for firearms like this". Had I not already addressed the committee before this photo was put up, I would have told them I own one.

    A 2116 is a very badly written piece of legislation that if left as is, will directly affect the ownership and possession of a wide group of firearms that have been owned by law-abiding citizens of NJ for hundreds of years. This bill will have no positive impact on reducing crime and has nothing to do with the safety of police officers in the street. The author of the bill has promised to ‘address the concerns of antique firearms owners, re-enactors and shotgun owners but the heart of this bill will be directed at owners of 50 caliber center fire rifles. That was made perfectly clear during the hearing.

    Another aspect of the hearing that was disappointing (and this is the 2nd time it has occurred at a hearing in NJ) was one firearms owner who spoke was concerned only about his own guns. He railed about them trying to take away the guns he had a right to own and pass on to his children and grandchildren, but he ended his statement by saying, "you can take those big 50 bmg’s, but leave my guns alone". Nothing like being thrown in front of the train.

    FCI again has offered our entire resources and staff to the offices of the NJ Legislature to provide them with accurate information on firearms related legislation. I’m not holding my breath, but it would be refreshing to have something like that happen.

    One of my big concerns about the NJ legislation is the legislators are not hearing from people who live in NJ and own a .50 BMG. The legislature needs to know there are many people who safely own and shoot this rifle who live in NJ and they need to know your concerns about your rifles. I strongly urge 50 owners to call the author of this bill and express your opinions. The author of this bill is listed here:

    Reed Gusciora : http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/members/BIO.asp?Leg=158
     
  2. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    I'd assume this has a grandfather clause for existing .50's? If not, they would run directly afoul of the 2nd Amendment and be subject to challenge in Federal court.
     
  3. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    No it wouldn't. The 2A has not been held incorporated through the 14A. Additionally, Heller left considerable latitude to the courts to flesh out what could be regulated, and the extent of those regulations, under the 2A.
     
  4. 50 Shooter

    50 Shooter member

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    Here's more info and bad news...


    From an email alert by Anthony P. Mauro, Sr. Chairman of the New Jersey Outdoor Alliance, a partial list of the .50-caliber firearms that would be banned in New Jersey under bill A2116:

    Traditional Muzzleloaders Banned by A2116

    A2116 bans all traditional muzzle loading rifles with synthetic stocks or fiber optic sights, the most common, popular, and safe traditional muzzle loaders currently used for hunting by New Jersey sportsmen. A partial list of popular muzzle loaders that would be banned by A2116 follows:

    Buckskinner flintlock Carbine (.50)

    CVA Greywolf percussion (.50)

    CVA Greywolf flintlock (.50)

    CVA Lynx percussion (camo) (.50)

    CVA Lynx percussion (camo) (.54)

    CVA Bobcat Hunter percussion (.50)

    CVA Bobcat Hunter percussion (.54)

    CVA Lone Wolf percussion (.50)

    CVA Timber Wolf percussion (.50)

    CVA Silver Wolf percussion (.50)

    CVA Silver Wolf percussion (.54)

    Deer Hunter percussion (blue) (.50)

    Deer Hunter flintlock (blue) (.50)

    Deer Hunter percussion (camo) (.50)

    Deer Hunter flintlock (blue) (.50)

    Pursuit XLT flintlock (camo) (.50)

    Pursuit XLT flintlock (blue) (.50)

    Pursuit XLT flintlock (nickel) (.50)

    Stone Mountain Silver Eagle percussion carbine (.50)

    Stone Mountain Silver Eagle percussion (.50)

    Thompson Center Black Mountain Magnum percussion (.50)

    Thompson Center Black Mountain Magnum percussion (.54)

    Thompson Center Firestorm percussion (.50)

    Thompson Center Firestorm flintlock (.50)

    Thompson Center Firestorm percussion (.54)

    Thompson Center Firestorm flintlock (.54)

    Thompson Center Greyhawk (.50)

    Thompson Center Greyhawk (.54)

    Thompson Center New England percussion (.50)

    Thompson Center New England flintlock .50

    Thompson Center New England percussion (.54)

    Thompson Center New England flintlock (.54)

    Thompson Center Tree Hawk percussion (.50)

    Traditions Deer Hunter flintlock (.50)

    Traditions Deer Hunter percussion (.50)

    Traditions Pellet flintlock (.50)

    Traditions PA Pellet flintlock (nickel) (.50)

    Traditions PA Pellet flintlock (blue) (.50)

    Traditions Panther percussion (.50)

    Traditions Panther percussion (.54)

    A2116 may also ban hundreds of other traditional muzzle loaders whose sights are not actually made of iron, or which contain a scope in lieu of iron or peep sights.

    Because A2116 redefines many hunting firearms as “destructive devices,” the legislation prevents the heirs of those who currently own these firearms from inheriting them as family heirlooms.

    Modern Guns Banned by A2116

    In addition to banning many traditional muzzle loading rifles, historical firearms, and the .50 BMG, A2116 would ban many modern firearms, including the following partial list:

    Examples of Banned Modern Hunting Rifles Under A2116

    .50 Alaskan

    .50 Peacekeeper

    .500 Jeffrey

    .50 Nitro

    .500 Nitro Express

    .600 Nitro Express

    .550 Nitro Express

    .577 Nitro Express

    .700 Nitro Express

    .500 50 Express

    .510 Fat Mac

    .6-577 Rewa

    .50 Beowolf

    .500 Black Powder Express

    .500 A-Square

    .505 Gibbs

    .500-465 Express

    .510 Whisper

    .505 Nyati

    .577 T-Rex

    .510 DTC

    .550 Magnum

    .50 Airgun

    .600 Overkill

    12.7 x 99mm

    14.5mm JDJ

    12.7 x 108 mm

    15.2 Steyr

    14.5 x 114mm

    Examples of Banned Modern Hunting & Target Handguns under A2116

    .50 Remington Single Shot RF

    .50 Remington Single Shot CF

    AMT Auto Mag

    Bowen Classic Arms .500 Linebaugh Revolver

    Guncrafter Industries M1

    Freedom Arms Model 555

    LAR Grizzly Win Mag

    Magnum Research Desert Eagle

    Magnum Research BFR Revolver

    Smith & Wesson 500 Revolver

    Smith & Wesson 500 Special Revolver

    Tanfoglio Thor-Raptor Single Shot

    Taurus Raging Bull 500 Revolver

    Thompson Center Encore .50 Single Shot

    Webley Boxer Revolver

    Zeliska .600 Nitro Express revolver

    Historical Firearms, Antiques and Replicas Banned by A2116

    A2116 bans hundreds of historical firearms, antiques and replicas. Though proponents of A2116 claim that the legislation targets only the .50 bmg rifle, this legislation is in reality a sweeping gun ban that would criminalize the possession, transfer, and inheritance of dozens of firearms other than the .50 bmg and the hunting guns mentioned above, including many collectible Revolutionary War through post-Civil War era firearms and replicas and antiques that are not even remotely similar to the .50 bmg.

    Following is a partial list of collectible historical firearms, antiques and replicas that would be banned by A2116. It is ironic that many of these firearms were used by early American patriots to win the very freedoms that A2116 seeks to take away:

    1842 Springfield (.69)

    1868 U.S. Springfield (.50/70)

    Allen Conversion (.50/70)

    Ballard Rifle (.50/70)

    Brown Bess Musket (.75)

    Brown Bess Trade Model (.75)

    British Officer’s Light Infantry Fusil (.67)

    Bullard Single Shot (.50)

    Cadet 1869 (50-70)

    Charleyville Pistol (.69)

    Charleyville 1777 French Rifle (.69)

    Charleyville 1766 Musket (.69)

    CVA Blunderbuss (.69)

    Colt Laidley (.50)

    Colt Lightning (.50/95)

    English Matchlock (.72)

    Evans Musket (.69)

    Gun Works English Sporting Rifle (.62)

    Gun Works English Sporting Rifle (.69)

    Harper’s Ferry Musket (.69)

    Joslyn 50-60

    Kodiak Express Double Rifle (.72)

    Marlin Carbine (.56/56)

    Martini Henry (.577)

    Maynard .50-70

    Maynard Carbine (.50)

    Merrill Latrobe (.50/70)

    Middlesex Village Long Land

    Middlesex Village Ship’s Carbine flintlock (.75)

    Middlesex Village 1717 French Army Musket flintlock (.69)

    Middlesex Village Cookson Fouling Piece (.70)

    Middlesex Village Doglock blunderbuss (.69)

    Middlesex Village Scottish Murdoch Pistol (.52)

    Middlesex Village 1773 French Cavalry Pistol (.69)

    Navy Arms British Dragoon Pistol (.614)

    October Country Muzzle Loading Light American Sporting Rifle (.62)

    October Country Muzzle Loading Eight Bore Double Heavy Rifle (.85)

    October Country Muzzle Loading Heavy Rifle (.85)

    October Country Muzzle Loading Heavy Rifle (1.00)

    Pacific Rifle Company African Zephyr Twelve Bore (.72)

    Pacific Rifle Company African Zephyr Twelve Bore (.83)

    Pedersoli 1777 Corrige Anno IX Musket (.69)

    Pedersoli 1777 Corrige Anno IX Dragoon Musket (.69)

    Pedersoli 1789 Austrian Infantry Musket (.69)

    Pedersoli 1809 Prussian (.75)

    Pedersoli 1816 Harper’s Ferry (.60)

    Pedersoli 1848 Springfield (.69)

    Pedersoli Fredericksburg Musket (.75)

    Pedersoli Kodiak Express SxS Double Rifle (.72)

    Perry Brass Frame Carbine (.50)

    Ranger Carbine flintlock (.75)

    Remington Rolling Block Rifle (.50)

    Remington Rolling Block Carbine (.50)

    Remington .50-45

    Remington .50 Rimfire

    Remington .50 Center Fire

    Remington 50-70

    Remington Hepburn .50-45

    Roberts (.58)

    Robertson Carbine (.52)

    Sharps 1853 (.52)

    Sharps 1855 (.52)

    Sharps 1855 (.577)

    Sharps 1859 (.50/70)

    Sharps 1859 (.52/70)

    Sharps 1863 (.50/70)

    Sharps 1863 (.52/70)

    Sharps 1865 (.52)

    Sharps 1867 (.50/70)

    Sharps 1867 (.52/70)

    Sharps 1870 (.50-70)

    Sharps 1874 (.50)

    Sharps 51-40

    Sharps Hankins 1861 (.52)

    Snider Carbine (.577)

    Spencer Rifle (.50)

    Spencer Rifle (.52)

    Spencer Rifle (.56)

    Spencer Carbine (.50)

    Spencer Carbine (.52)

    Spencer Carbine (.56)

    Tarpley Carbine (.52)

    U.S. 1816 Musket (.69)

    Whitney (.50/95)

    Whitney-Laidley (.50)

    Whitney Musket (.69)

    Whitney Phoenix (.50)

    Winchester Single Shot (.50)

    Winchester Hi-wall (.50)

    Winchester 1876 (.50-95)

    Winchester 1886 (.50 express)
     
  5. meanmotorscooter

    meanmotorscooter Member

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    Well good thing shotgun slugs are .72 cal and not .50 cal. Haha !!!
     
  6. Gunnerpalace

    Gunnerpalace Member

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    This needs to be stopped,

    Then again lets try this, pass it get some super anti in there and have him or her Ban the 12ga (size wise see where I am going ;) ) Thus screwing the fudds and bringing them over (wake up call) challenge it (because the NRA will be on it at the 12ga point) and get it throw out making the anti's look stupid, and bringing people over to our side.
     
  7. qwert65

    qwert65 Member

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    NJ is insane! glad i'm not there anymore
     
  8. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    jeeeeeeez

    As if there is something inherently dangerous once a bullet gets to or over half an inch...

    Idiots. I have no pity for them. They allowed this to happen to themselves.
     
  9. qwert65

    qwert65 Member

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    Not all of us, unfortunatly we are a tiny minority our votes just don't matter
     
  10. Vicious-Peanut

    Vicious-Peanut Member

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    Really? A muzzleloader? I didn't realize NJ was THIS bad.
     
  11. yenchisks

    yenchisks member

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    so you can still own a 50 bmg, as long as it's neck down to .45;)
     
  12. MagnumDweeb

    MagnumDweeb Member

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    Just a random thought, if .50 caliber laws really do pass and are likely to last four or so years could there be a market for .50 modern calibers necked down to .45 or .49(just to mess with the antis). A Barret rifle interchangeably converted to the .455BMG where they neck down a .50 to fire .45. From what I have seen with teh 10mm necked down to the 9.25 Dillon you get a far faster round capable of more energy. Just a though. An idea to spit in the face of the antis "you make our calibers smaller, we'll make them more powerful." Much like how the gun industry, when limited to 10 round mags started working on making the smallest guns possible capable of holding ten round mags.
     
  13. 50 Shooter

    50 Shooter member

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    It would be easier to go with the .416 Barrett as it's already out there then to try to come up with yet another round.
     
  14. robertham1

    robertham1 Member

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    Man, I am depressed......

    And I thought California was bad....
     
  15. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

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    We're all writing and calling, but who knows. This one has been defeated before, but after this last election, maybe things have changed.

    Was kind of wanting to get one of those S&W X-frames . . . . sigh.
     
  16. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    So New Jersey finally did what Gen. Gage couldn't, disarm the colonists of thier muskets.
     
  17. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    This will have a hard time standing up in court, though. There WILL be challenges to it, and once it's found how many firearms are actually affected by it, it'll be thrown out as overly broad.
     
  18. Gunnerpalace

    Gunnerpalace Member

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    That statement just summed up everything, not just this thread but a ton of them.
     
  19. X9ballX

    X9ballX Member

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    50 cal ban? thats retarded seeing as though i have never heard of anyone being killed by a 50 cal anything in my life. i still think semi auto 50 cal rifles need to be considered a class 3 weapon
     
  20. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    However, it would be unconstitutional as an ex post facto law, plus a violation of the Takings Clause in the 5th Amendment. IMHO.
     
  21. Franksterm1

    Franksterm1 Member

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    I wrote my Assemblywoman Jasey

    and I quote

    :cuss:"A2116 makes the fundamental mistake of banning guns based on the size of the hole in the barrel rather than punishing criminal behavior. It treats law abiding citizens who choose to exercise their Second Amendment rights like potential criminals. Though amended the legislation still bans many popular hunting guns, historical firearms, and large bore target firearms, based on alleged public safety concerns. Ironically, the legislation bans many of the guns that won the very freedoms the bill seeks to destroy, including some Revolutionary War and Civil War guns and their replicas.

    Please vote against this ineffectual measure and focus on measures that keep criminals behind bars versus limiting our freedoms."

    Their usual method is if they don't agree with you, you won't hear from them. I don't expect I'll be hearing from her.:cuss:
     
  22. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    ***?

    If they are going to allow rifled shotgun barrels firing slugs then why would they ban anything based on the caliber?
    But it's a gun law. Gun laws inherently don't make much sense.
     
  23. MGshaggy

    MGshaggy Member

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    Apparently you've read some of my other posts, but you didn't read all the way through, huh? :D

    Unfortunately no it wouldn't be unconstitutional on the basis you cite, since a state law prohibition, unlike one in federal law, would not deprive the owner of ALL economic benefits of their ownership. One could move the guns beyond the jurisdiction of the state, sell it to someone in another state, etc. For example, at one time you could buy and own NFA weapons in California. Sometime after the state prohibited private ownership of NFA weapons, I bought a full-auto AK47 from a CA resident. Although he could no longer possess it legally in his state, he could avail himself of at least some of the economic benefits of ownership by selling it to me for several thousand dollars.
     
  24. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Originaly all citizens could possess the same small arms as anyone else.

    They slowly became restricted.

    Other rifles were as powerful 50BMG.
    American citizens were free to own them.


    This Mauser from 1918 is a good example: http://www.ycgg.org/images/T-gewehr right-1a.jpg

    the round’s weight was 51.5g (795gn), and left the barrel at a velocity of 780m/sec (2,650ft/sec)
    http://ww1history.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_tank_abwehr_gewehr_1918

    So 795 grains at 2,650 feet per second gives us 12,394 foot pounds of energy. Similar to the .50 BMG energy figures in bullets of similar weight.

    Of course the .50 BMG was mainly fired at a high rate of fire from machineguns.

    Gun laws would get more and more restrictive.


    Eventualy civilians would be restricted to predominantly rounds of .50 or less bore diameter.
    Where previously they could have firearms with a 1" bore, 30mm cannons etc, now they were only good enough for .50 and less.

    So citizens adapted. They made due with mere .50 and less chamberings, like the .50 BMG designed in 1914.

    The military used it heavily in WW2.
    During World War Two the .50 BMG was barely considered suitable when employed against low flying aircraft. Often failing to down aircraft reliably even when fired from multi barreled full auto machineguns with massive rates of fire. Mark 31 Quads of 4 M2 full auto machine guns did not stop Kamikaze pilots. Yet the US military made due with what it had.
    They simply stacked multiple M2s together and used them with limited success. Attempting to make the M2 work in sheer numbers.
    It was used on several fighters etc, but was a barely adequate round, with several others significantly more effective used by other nations. To be moderately effective even for fighters they had several of them that fired in unison, like 6-8 firing at once.
    Here is a great comparison of WW2 fighter rounds:
    http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

    Most of the world moved on from the .50 to 20-30mm cannons for use against aicraft from both the ground and in fighter aircraft, and against light armor like APCs and AFVs. The BMG was simply inadequate in those roles.
    It became just an anti personel round for use against infantry in the military sense, of course still adequate against unarmored civilian vehicles.

    During the Korean and Vietnam wars it was still employed by the US in the general purpose role, but most of the world had moved on from the pitiful chambering as a general purpose round, and limited it to use against infantry.

    Then it would be employed in rifles. Making a fine platform for long range shooting against infantry. Nothing like many more powerful chamberings, and certainly limited to few roles outside of anti-personel roles (even though technicaly considered an anti-material round suitable for many roles.)

    It remains useful against insurgents because they use civilian vehicles, but even the Soviets realized long ago they needed for more powerful calibers for roles other than anti-personel.



    Bottom line is the .50 BMG is a nearly 100 year old outdated round, that is only "too powerful" because it manages to fit within the .50" bore limitations imposed on civilians.
    It is not even near the power of many similar rifles in larger chamberings developed around WW2.

    The militaries of the world decided the .50 BMG was unsuitable in the anti-aircraft role, even against low flying military aircraft decades ago and moved on to many more powerful calibers. Mark 31 Quad (4 M2s that fire together as one unit) was not even useful against low flying Japanese kamikaze aircraft. It was abandoned. Yet aircraft are some of the most vulnerable vehicles around.
    Most of the world decided rounds of similar power were unsuitable in fighting even light military vehicles like APCs and AFVs, and moved on to bigger and better calibers for those roles. Those are some of the most vulnerable military vehicles on the modern battlefield, and the BMG is not even suitable there.

    So the BMG is only too powerful because you, the Average Joe can still have it. Because it is one of the only calibers below .50 that has any significant role on a modern battlefield where most things are designed to defeat smaller caliber rounds (and many even the BMG, just not worn by infantry). Yet by meeting the .50 limitation peasants can have them.
    Even then it is just adequate from an M2 with a high rate of fire.
    You can only have a rifle with a low rate of fire.
    So the ".50 cal) is one of the last common and plentiful legal calibers chambered in suitable platforms that can be effective against most personel (like storm troopers in heavy body armor.)
    Overall though it is too weak for most military roles (except against infantry).
    It is just barely adequate in the anti-tyranny role though, and that makes it too powerful for the peasant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  25. Elm Creek Smith

    Elm Creek Smith Member

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    Why, X9ballX? What makes a .50 BMG semi any different from any other semiauto rifle?

    ECS
     
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