NM Blackhawk or Uberti El Patron in 45 Colt?

[45 Dragoon]

The Cattleman (Uberti's copy of the Colt) is an excellent S.A. for the money. I had an EL Patron Competition version for several years. It was an excellent shooter and very accurate! Of course I converted the flat trigger and bolt springs to coil torsion springs and upgraded the handspring to my version (the handspring is coil and plunger from the factory). With the other things that I normally do to S.A.s , the action is as tough and reliable as the Ruger and should be equal in the longevity department. The European makers proof their firearms to a higher spec. so the Cattleman is superior to the Colt as far as strength goes for much less money.
I say all this to show that even an entry level import S.A. can be upgraded to be a Ruger equal in all respects . . . the one exception of not being able to load Ruger onlys. I never felt the need to even go there (you can't shoot R.Onlys in a Colt either . . . or any other current copies that I know of. FA's and BFRs aren't copies either). Adding a 45acp cyl. will give you even more ammo options and if you reload, you'll have all kind of options for ammo. BTW, I like Rugers too but they don't necessarily scratch the "itch" the same way a true copy does.
I also think the Uberti (or Pietta) copies can be tuned to a closer degree than the Ruger action can be when it comes to correct timing along with a lighter action.
Mike

 

[jdavis123]

The El Patron is the top of the Cattleman line of Uberti 1973 revolvers. The fit and finish is given a bit more attention as well as the action. The lock work on my El Patron is glass smooth and breaks cleanly at just over 2 lbs. It does not use the transfer bar as the Ruger does but uses a clever spring loaded hammer mounted firing pin to keep the original Colt look. Both the Black Hawk and El Patron are fine well made guns and either will server you well. However, if you want the traditional 1873 Colt feel and design, the El Patron or the Ruger Vaquero are better choices.

 

[bannockburn]

I have a Ruger Vaquero, EMF Hartford Model (ASM), Single Action Army, and a Beretta (Uberti), Stampede, all in .45 Colt. All three are very well built, nicely finished, and function perfectly. The Vaquero is probably the most accurate, possibly because I have been shooting it more than the other two and I'm more accustomed to it's sights. But the Italian guns have a more Colt SAA feel to them and I like the way they feel and balance in my hand.

One of these days I'm going to pick up a Ruger Blackhawk with a spare .45 ACP cylinder just to play around with it and for trying out different handloads in it. For now though I'm extremely happy with the .45 Colt guns I have!

 

[375supermag]

Hi...
I own several .45Colt revolvers. A couple of ful size Vaqueros, a Blackhawk, a Model 25 and a Uberti Cimarron SAA clone along with SBH in .45 Colt.

I shoot them all regularly. If you handload, you can load rounds for the Blackhawks that rival or exceed .44Mag level power. I wouldn't try that with any Uberti SAA clone.

I don't have a favorite...I enjoy and shoot them all and have no plans to get rid of any.
More likely to acquire more of each.
I just enjoy shooting SA revolvers.

 

[Armored farmer]

Didn't you have SAA 45 Colt with Masonic grips there Armored farmer?

I have a couple of guns with Masonic emblems, but not a SAA.

 

[MaxP]

Other than the ability to twiddle with the adjustable sights, what can the Ruger Blackhawk Convertible do that the Uberti can't?

35W

The Uberti can actually do one thing the Ruger can’t and that’s come apart with the aforementioned Ruger-only +P type loads.

 

[MaxP]

I get the whole Ruger only load thing. Assuming only factory level loads will be used how do the two stack up?

There are plenty of commercial +P .45 Colt loads available from a number of ammunition manufacturers.

 

[MaxP]

Yeah...thanks for clearing that up.



The bottom line is this: You ask that question here and 99% of the people who answer are going to tell you "Ruger", with the same stock reasons- You can shoot heavier loads and they're stronger. There are almost no shooters on this forum with any real experience with Uberti's, therefore they just repeat the same Ruger answers as they read here.

So here's a suggestion- Since they're both fairly common, buy a used El Patron (Two on Gunbroker right now for ~$400) and a used NM Blackhawk and sell the one you don't like. If you're a stickler for accuracy, balance and just out of the box ready to shoot-ness, I'll bet a dollar to a donut hole the Ruger goes down the road.

35W

I have owned Ubertis, tested them, etc. and I stand by my suggestion. One thing important to me is the adjustable rear sight. Makes for a much more useful firearm.

 

[35 Whelen]

I get what you're saying Max, and when I made the comparison statement I was referring to the Blackhawk Flat Top. I should've clarified that.

I own Ruger's and Uberti's. I prefer the Uberti's mainly because right out of the box, they're ready to go and extremely accurate, especially those of recent production, say the last 6-8 years. This is the main reason I keep going back to them.



But the adjustable sights are a plus for some. A couple of weeks ago I shot a meat buck with the above revolver and am now realizing that shooting short barrel revolvers with skinny front sights using my 55+ year old eyes is an exercise that will end soon.

You're going to get little to no input regarding the Italian revolvers here, because no one shoots them much. Ironically, you'll get much more accurate, real world input regarding these revolvers over on the Colt Forum with one such thread found here. You can also search posts by Cozmo, a collector of Colt's and USFA's who has lots of actual experience with Uberti's.

So to @ontarget appreciate them for their differences. One has adjustable sights and, in the case of the full-size Blackhawk, is stronger. The other is more trim, generally better fitted and spec'd and out of the box will likely be more accurate.

35W

 

[doubleh]

I wouldn't worry about the longevity of either. I would choose the Ruger for the adjustable sights. I have a nice SAA clone but at my age it's very difficult to use it's rudimentary sighting system. The only thing worse for me is the 1860 Army's sights which I find almost useless.

 

[no.5enfield]

I get what you're saying Max, and when I made the comparison statement I was referring to the Blackhawk Flat Top. I should've clarified that.

I own Ruger's and Uberti's. I prefer the Uberti's mainly because right out of the box, they're ready to go and extremely accurate, especially those of recent production, say the last 6-8 years. This is the main reason I keep going back to them.

View attachment 880626

But the adjustable sights are a plus for some. A couple of weeks ago I shot a meat buck with the above revolver and am now realizing that shooting short barrel revolvers with skinny front sights using my 55+ year old eyes is an exercise that will end soon.

You're going to get little to no input regarding the Italian revolvers here, because no one shoots them much. Ironically, you'll get much more accurate, real world input regarding these revolvers over on the Colt Forum with one such thread found here. You can also search posts by Cozmo, a collector of Colt's and USFA's who has lots of actual experience with Uberti's.

So to @ontarget appreciate them for their differences. One has adjustable sights and, in the case of the full-size Blackhawk, is stronger. The other is more trim, generally better fitted and spec'd and out of the box will likely be more accurate.

35W

Thanks for posting that.
I was curious as to whether people hunted with "cowboy" loads. I realize that 285gr/900+fps load is quite a bit warmer than the cowboy stuff, but a SAA clone handled it apparently.

 

[45 Dragoon]

no.5e field,
As mentioned in the top post ^^^ , the imports are proofed at higher pressures (that would indicate higher than " cowboy " loads (whatever that is)) which means they would be more likely to stay together than a stateside offering?

Mike

 

[silvermane_1]

I have a couple of guns with Masonic emblems, but not a SAA.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[no.5enfield]

no.5e field,
As mentioned in the top post ^^^ , the imports are proofed at higher pressures (that would indicate higher than " cowboy " loads (whatever that is)) which means they would be more likely to stay together than a stateside offering?

Mike

I've heard that, just haven't seen anyone testing it. Looks like it works, based on your post.

 

[MidRoad]

no.5e field,
As mentioned in the top post ^^^ , the imports are proofed at higher pressures (that would indicate higher than " cowboy " loads (whatever that is)) which means they would be more likely to stay together than a stateside offering?

Mike

Higher pressures than what though? Saami for 45 colt is 14000 psi. So do the Italians base their proof test off that? The midframe Ruger 45's are said safe for 45 acp +p which is 23000psi. Ruger is known for proof testing their stuff, so if they say 45 acp+p is safe wouldn't ruger have to proof test based on 23000? Im not sure, just bringing out a point.

 

[MaxP]

no.5e field,
As mentioned in the top post ^^^ , the imports are proofed at higher pressures (that would indicate higher than " cowboy " loads (whatever that is)) which means they would be more likely to stay together than a stateside offering?

Mike

I would make a hefty wager that River’s proof loads are considerably hotter than anything the Uberti can handle. I would venture a guess that the Ruger can eat 40,000 PSI loads for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The Uberti not so much.

 

[desmobob]

It's fun to own and shoot a historic model (or replica). I bought a SAA from Colt's custom shop in the nineties that scratches that itch. But, I'm about to order a New Model Blackhawk in .45 Colt for hunting use.

When I bought the Colt, I had shied away from the Blackhawk because it didn't look authentic. But what it lacks in authentic looks, it makes up for in strength.

 

[35 Whelen]

Higher pressures than what though? Saami for 45 colt is 14000 psi. So do the Italians base their proof test off that? The midframe Ruger 45's are said safe for 45 acp +p which is 23000psi. Ruger is known for proof testing their stuff, so if they say 45 acp+p is safe wouldn't ruger have to proof test based on 23000? Im not sure, just bringing out a point.

C.I.P., Europe's version of SAAMI, requires the firearms of their member countries to be proofed with loads generating pressures 30% greater than standard loads. I can't find the table, but I think their pressure standard for the 45 Colt is 1100 bar, or 16,000 psi. This would mean they proof 45 Colt chambered firearms at around 21,000 psi. The real clencher though is that Uberti offers 45 ACP cylinders for their revolvers. Even if you don't take into account the proofing for the much higher pressures of the 45 ACP cylinders, they would still be capable of handling 45 ACP pressures (21,000 psi standard, 23,000 psi +P). So if a Uberti SA is built to handle 45 ACP pressures, what would the difference be with the 45 Colt? Also FYI, Uberti cylinder diameters and the chamber wall thicknesses are about the same as the New Vaquero.

35W

 

[45 Dragoon]

I would make a hefty wager that River’s proof loads are considerably hotter than anything the Uberti can handle. I would venture a guess that the Ruger can eat 40,000 PSI loads for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The Uberti not so much.

I also made it pretty clear that the Uberti /Pietta copies would not be safe with "Ruger only" loads (almost right in the middle of the same post ^^^). I'm referring to several readings/reports over the years that put the "safe max pressure" at about 21,000psi . Folks must have "cabin fever " . . .

I've also tried to make it clear that I am a fan of Ruger S.A.s as well the Italian copies (I have to, I work on both). What typically happens with these type threads is you have to be in one camp or the other. First thing said about one brand brings out the "can't handle hot loads" from the other . . . my gun has 4 clicks, yours only has 3. Mine has adjustable sights, those don't.

Some folks don't mind shooting rounds that have been around for 100 yrs in revolvers that mimic the originals. That being the case, those particular revolvers don't need to withstand rounds with 2and 3 times the pressure. Most folks don't load .38 spl rounds to .357 mag pressure for a reason. Same with .44 spl and .44 mag. as well as .45C and .45 ROs.

I guess some folks just plain don't like Uberti S.A.s and will jump at any chance to tell everyone (again and again) they can't handle "Ruger only " or upper 2nd/3rd tier pressure rounds (like we don't know).

Mike

PS -thanks 35 Whelen for the info. That's what I was referring to. My El Patron Comp shot quite a lot of 45 acp. and was just as accurate as with .45 C.

Pss - MaxP, what are "River's proof loads"?

 

[MaxP]

I also made it pretty clear that the Uberti /Pietta copies would not be safe with "Ruger only" loads (almost right in the middle of the same post ^^^). I'm referring to several readings/reports over the years that put the "safe max pressure" at about 21,000psi . Folks must have "cabin fever " . . .

I've also tried to make it clear that I am a fan of Ruger S.A.s as well the Italian copies (I have to, I work on both). What typically happens with these type threads is you have to be in one camp or the other. First thing said about one brand brings out the "can't handle hot loads" from the other . . . my gun has 4 clicks, yours only has 3. Mine has adjustable sights, those don't.

Some folks don't mind shooting rounds that have been around for 100 yrs in revolvers that mimic the originals. That being the case, those particular revolvers don't need to withstand rounds with 2and 3 times the pressure. Most folks don't load .38 spl rounds to .357 mag pressure for a reason. Same with .44 spl and .44 mag. as well as .45C and .45 ROs.

I guess some folks just plain don't like Uberti S.A.s and will jump at any chance to tell everyone (again and again) they can't handle "Ruger only " or upper 2nd/3rd tier pressure rounds (like we don't know).

Mike

PS thanks 35 Whelen for the info. That's what I was referring to. My El Patron Comp shot quite a lot of 45 acp. and was just as accurate as with .45 C.

That wouldn’t be me, but I was pretty clear in stating that for a hunting revolver the Ruger is superior. Nothing wrong with the Uberti, they’re just on frail side, and perfectly fine for general use like punching paper. Standard proof loads in America are 50% higher. .454 Casull proof loads are at 92,000 PSI. Every single Ruger revolver gets a cylinder full of proof loads through them before they are boxed up and shipped.

 

[murf]

C.I.P., Europe's version of SAAMI, requires the firearms of their member countries to be proofed with loads generating pressures 30% greater than standard loads. I can't find the table, but I think their pressure standard for the 45 Colt is 1100 bar, or 16,000 psi. This would mean they proof 45 Colt chambered firearms at around 21,000 psi. The real clencher though is that Uberti offers 45 ACP cylinders for their revolvers. Even if you don't take into account the proofing for the much higher pressures of the 45 ACP cylinders, they would still be capable of handling 45 ACP pressures (21,000 psi standard, 23,000 psi +P). So if a Uberti SA is built to handle 45 ACP pressures, what would the difference be with the 45 Colt? Also FYI, Uberti cylinder diameters and the chamber wall thicknesses are about the same as the New Vaquero.

35W

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/en/tdcc_public

it is in here somewhere!

murf

p.s. if you multiply c.i.p. pressure by 14.7, you get saami psi pressure. so 1,100 bar is 16,170 psi.

 

[45 Dragoon]

MaxP,
Ok so . . . I guess we're "clear".

Mike

 

[MidRoad]

C.I.P., Europe's version of SAAMI, requires the firearms of their member countries to be proofed with loads generating pressures 30% greater than standard loads. I can't find the table, but I think their pressure standard for the 45 Colt is 1100 bar, or 16,000 psi. This would mean they proof 45 Colt chambered firearms at around 21,000 psi. The real clencher though is that Uberti offers 45 ACP cylinders for their revolvers. Even if you don't take into account the proofing for the much higher pressures of the 45 ACP cylinders, they would still be capable of handling 45 ACP pressures (21,000 psi standard, 23,000 psi +P). So if a Uberti SA is built to handle 45 ACP pressures, what would the difference be with the 45 Colt? Also FYI, Uberti cylinder diameters and the chamber wall thicknesses are about the same as the New Vaquero.

35W

Isn't that roughly what I was sayin? Lol. Didn't realize uberti offered a 45 acp cylinder, that's a nice option!

Since both have 45 acp cylinder with the same demension as their 45 colt counter parts, are both proof tested for the +p pressures 45 acp (assuming uberti accounts for +p like Ruger is said to), metallurgy aside, they should both be roughly the same strength. Referring to flattop/vaquero vs the uberti. Which leave the lock work and frame bulk left as the determining factor of "strength". But like what's said before it's highly unlikely one would shoot enough to wear either out. Again nothing against uberti, I've got one of those no3 schofields and a colt saa replica on my dream list aswell but the flattop was much more practical for me, so went with that. But another factor to consider is that retractable firing pin (not sure if the El patron has it) and customer service if something is to go wrong. Which these days ya never know.

 

[MaxP]

MaxP,
Ok so . . . I guess we're "clear".

Mike

Are we?

 

[35 Whelen]

That wouldn’t be me, but I was pretty clear in stating that for a hunting revolver the Ruger is superior. Nothing wrong with the Uberti, they’re just on frail side, and perfectly fine for general use like punching paper. Standard proof loads in America are 50% higher. .454 Casull proof loads are at 92,000 PSI. Every single Ruger revolver gets a cylinder full of proof loads through them before they are boxed up and shipped.

I think a little perspective is in order, Max.

Yes, a Ruger is a better hunting revolver than a Colt repro, just like a compound bow is better than a longbow, an in-line muzzle loader is better than a flintlock, and a scoped Remington 700 is better than an 1873 Winchester. I personally have never understood someone seeking the challenge of hunting with a handgun, a bow or a muzzle loader, then pushing that technology to the edge with pullies, cables, scopes, synthetic stocks, sabots, sights that require batteries, and revolvers that weigh nearly as much as carbines and have to be carried in special rigs, but to each his own. Likewise, I'm sure you don't understand why anyone would want to take to the field with a fixed sighted revolver, a longbow or a flintlock, but again to each his own. We don't all feel the need to hunt with huge revolvers chambered in cartridges whose chamber pressure exceeds that of many rifle cartridges, but I support those who do.

This is the sixth hunting season I've used a Uberti of some flavor to take at least part of our annual venison supply, and I get an enormous amount of satisfaction out of doing so, much more than I would with the Blackhawk that sits idle in my safe.

35W