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No "padded coat"...no turnstile jumping

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Graystar, Jul 29, 2005.

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  1. Graystar

    Graystar Member

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  2. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

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    Gee. How interesting. Funny how the story keeps getting more horrifying as more details as released.

    So lemme get this right. This Brazilian electrician goes to some place to fix a fire alarm. He is not dressed in any suspicious matter nor acting in a suspicious manner. He was wearing a denim jacket, which is hardly "bulky". It's near a place of interest by the police. Police (not in uniform) follow the guy for a length of time. Then pull out guns, do not identify themselves, chase the guy. He tries to take a subway and uses something like the EZ-Pass system.

    He gets pinned down by two officers, while a third fires a number of rounds into his head. I've heard five rounds, which has since jumped to eight rounds.

    Hmm... Did I miss anything?

    Because it sounds like an execution.
     
  3. boofus

    boofus Guest

    They left out the part where undercover officers took turns biting chunks out of his arms and legs and shocking him with tasers, then they set his house on fire, shot his wife and dog, then they put panties on his head, pulled out his fingernails, dunked his head in a bucket, gouged out his eyes, stretched him on the rack, kicked him in the nuts, boiled him in oil, flogged him, stoned him, hung him, and then shot him for no real reason at all.

    :rolleyes:

    Remember the source of the article and any agenda they might have.
     
  4. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    Unbiased disinterested reporter there.
     
  5. Graystar

    Graystar Member

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    You missed these parts...

     
  6. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    This is something easily proven or disproven by photography of the scene after the shooting and his clothing held in evidence.

    Pilgrim
     
  7. mzmtg

    mzmtg member

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    Link to photos?
     
  8. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    I missed nothing. It's still the relatives saying what the Met knows.

    If there was just a press conference, don't you think the news would quote a Met officer if he said anything of the sort?
     
  9. GunGoBoom

    GunGoBoom member

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    Right, photos which probably no one will ever see, if he was indeed wearing a jean jacket, on that 62 deg low/69 deg high weather day. Much like how the door to the Branch Davidian compound was whisked away in a government van, never to be seen again. The door that some witnesses said contained bullet holes from federal agents shot into in order to keep the massacre victims from be able to escape with their lives after the fire was set. It will certainly be interesting to see whether or not the photos ever show up, won't it? Maybe their camera malfunctioned.... maybe some boofus in the lab opened up the film and exposed it to daylight - dammit, but we're gonna fire that guy! We'll see.
     
  10. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    The amazing thing to me about this story is that so many people here are trying to justify and support what the police did.

    It is amazing that so many people on a message board dedicated to civil rights are willing to trade away those rights so easily in return for a perceived sense of safety.

    The London Police have ADMITTED the mistake and ACCEPTED responsibility, yet people are still claiming they did nothing wrong. If the police themselves are saying "oops we messed up", then why is anyone else trying to say otherwise.
     
  11. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    Here in the USA the police would be on trial for MURDER.


    But in the UK officers of the Queen are never wrong. SO there will be no trial, and no real investigation.

    Not at all surprising.
     
  12. Andrew Rothman

    Andrew Rothman Member

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    Please point to a post where anyone said or implied that.
    Please point to a post where anyone said or implied that.

    The bobbies shot the wrong guy, but that doesn't mean that his relatives are telling the truth when their account varies broadly from the accounts of witnesses.

    It is possible -- likely, even -- that the dead guy was wearing a bulky coat, ran from cops, and was NOT a terrorist.
     
  13. Kurush

    Kurush Member

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    Here in the USA they would have been given the Lon Horiuchi Medal of Bravery and promoted.
     
  14. HankB

    HankB Member

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    I just don't know the full story here, so I can't make a definitive judgement.

    But the stories I've seen all seem to be consistent in that the officers were "undercover" or "plainclothes" operatives.

    It would be enlightening to know how they went about identifying themselves as police officers, and if they did anything beyond pulling guns and screaming the Brit equivalent of "Drop, <expletive>!!

    Unarmed, my inclination would be to run from screaming men (dressed in ordinary clothes) if they were waving guns around, too, no matter what they were screaming.
     
  15. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    Acknowledging reality is different from trying to justify and support what the police did.

    This thread is based on the Brazilian's family's statement that the police told the family that the Brazilian was wearing a jeans jacket.

    How is it "trying to justify and support what the police did" to question the validity of the statement about the jeans jacket?

    I question the statement about the jeans jacket because it is directly at odds with multiple eyewitness accounts made immediately after the incident. For instance, this BBC article entitled "I saw Tube man shot - eyewitness" contains the following:
     
  16. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    The 4 police officers who shot Amadou Diallo in 1999 (a case of mistaken identity and a misidentified weapon) were put on trial and acquited by a jury of their peers. NYC paid a 3 million dollar judgement to his family for wrongful death because they lost the civil suit.
     
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Big city US cops do this kind of thing on a regular basis, only they usually miss the suspect with half their shots. And they usually don't have as good an excuse as a possible suicide bomber.

    If they had reason to fear he was about to detonate, destroying his brain is the only way to stop him.

    It now appears the man was running because he had expired papers and should not have been in the UK. All in all, probably just a tragic series of misunderstandings and panic on both sides.
     
  18. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    OK, so are we soposed to dress in black uniforms or dark grey? I've been practicing my Sig Heil. Other than that I should be ready to go to England and be a proper subject. :barf: :barf: :barf:

    /Police screwed up, no question.
     
  19. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly..
    I've questioned from the beginning whether it was a "bulky" coat or if that was just puffery. Now it comes out he didn't jump the turnstile like they said. Add to that the fact that the police were not uniformed, and you've got virtually nothing left except that he lived in the same building as a suspect, had dark skin, and tried to take a train.

    Pretty slim.
     
  20. CentralTexas

    CentralTexas Member

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    Note: The decedent was from BRAZIL

    They grow COFFEEE in Brazil don't they, Hmmmmm
    2+2=5
    CT :D
     
  21. thorn726

    thorn726 Member

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    and then how they all claim it isnt happening, got to love it.

    especially the attitudes before we found out the guy was a nobody.

    people want to feel like it was an honest, easily made mistake.
    it wasn't it was a horrible horrible miscalculation made by morons.

    even the slightest justification makes all of us suceptible to the same fate.
     
  22. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    If you really think someone is about to detonate, whether you are a cop or a citizen the ONLY thing you can do to stop them is destroy their central nervous system. This means chopping their head off after pinning them down or blowing it off with handguns. There is absolutely no other choice.

    Obviously, the cops screwed up because this guy was not a bomber just an illegal. But as screwups go it's easy to understand. Assuming the police ID' themselves and the fellow ran in a panic onto a crowded subway train, I can see why that would look like someone about to detonate.

    For example, if the guy in front of you on an airplane is trying to light his shoes on fire and put them against the glass of his window, the only thing you can do is grab his neck in a sleeper hold and squeeze as hard as you possibly can. I know I would. Hell I'd squeeze until it came off! And I wouldn't loose a night's sleep even if it turned out there was nothing but empty fuses in his shoes. You see a suicide bomber, you do everything humanly possible to secure his arms and destroy his head by all means necessary or you'll end up in little sandwitch bags in a lab getting your DNA identified.
     
  23. Kurush

    Kurush Member

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    :eek:
    One of the real bombers was from Eritrea... Which ALSO GROWS COFFEE :what:

    :uhoh:
     
  24. agricola

    agricola Member

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    this is still not something that has been confirmed, and it is not something that has been supported by witnesses at the time.
     
  25. Harry Tuttle

    Harry Tuttle Member

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    http://www.ipsnews.net/print.asp?idnews=29642

    BRITAIN:
    Police Response More Frightening Than the Killing

    Sanjay Suri

    LONDON, Jul 26 (IPS) - That an innocent Brazilian was shot dead on the London Underground is tragic; but the near justification of that killing by the police is frightening.

    The police have now openly declared a shoot-to-kill policy, and declared that they can shoot to kill just on suspicion. And that suspicion arising not from reliable intelligence or anything like that, but from just how someone may behave somewhere.

    Until the other day everyone thought that a Brit licensed to kill was a character in a James Bond film. Now that is official British policy.

    London's police commissioner Sir Ian Blair expressed ''regret'' -- and no more -- over the death of Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes. That ''regret'' was accompanied by the remark that there could be more such killing of innocent people.

    Ian Blair said the police had a shoot-to-kill policy to stop suspected suicide bombers. ''This is not a Metropolitan (police) policy, this is a national policy and I think we are quite comfortable that the policy is right, but of course these are fantastically difficult times...there are still officers having to make those calls as we speak. Somebody else could be shot.''

    Not many police chiefs of cities around the world who carry the responsibility of protecting their citizens would say this. The chilling message is that right or wrong, if an armed policeman is suspicious of your movements, it is okay, in fact required by national policy to instantly shoot to kill.

    His predecessor John Stevens spelt out in bloody detail in an article in 'The News of the World' weekly what his police had learnt from the Israeli police. ''I sent teams to Israel and other countries hit by suicide bombers where we learned a terrible truth. There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfil his mission -- destroy his brain instantly, utterly. That means shooting him with devastating power in the head, killing him immediately.''

    Charles was shot eight times, seven times in the head and once in the shoulder. Given the police environment these days, he could be penalized for getting one of the eight shots wrong.

    But Stevens expressed more than just regret. ''My heart goes out to the officer who killed the man in Stockwell Tube Station,'' he wrote. Some people thought at first they had read that wrong. But no, his heart was not going out to the man killed, or to his family and friends; it went out to the policeman who killed him.

    The lies after lies that came thick and fast after that shooting uncover just how hollow the suspicions might be on the strength of which they have been given powers to shoot to kill.

    First, that he was being watched and shadowed as he left his block of flats to take a bus to the station. That he was then followed to the train and shot when he ran. But there is now no word from the police why they were shadowing a Brazilian electrician -- if they were shadowing him at all, that is. They said they shadowed him 15 minutes on a bus, but not a word why they did not intercept him earlier.

    Then came the announcement that he had been ''directly connected'' to inquiries over the attempts to plant bombs on trains a day earlier. Then the admission that this was not so at all, though the police were ''comfortable'' with the policy that made such a mistake possible.

    Followed the announcement that he was an illegal immigrant and that he therefore ran when he saw the police. It then turned out he was not illegal at all. And no word why he ran, or even whether it was the case that he was challenged by the police and was running from the police. And there was more, that he came from a suspect neighbourhood, that his jacket was too heavy for that hot summer dayà

    It was always frightening to know that you had to do all of nothing, just be somewhere some time to get blown up by a terrorist. Now people know you could be doing almost nothing to get shot by the police. There needs to be as little sense to a policeman's suspicion as to a terrorist's madness.

    Save us from the terrorists; but please also someone save us from our saviours. (END/2005)
     
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