Non lethal

B

bobbigdaay

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Joined
Sep 3, 2024
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Hi, new member here. Just wondering what you guys think of non lethal guns such as the much hyped Byrna launcher. I was thinking about getting one for my daughter who though not anti gun by any stretch of the imagination doesn't feel quite comfortable carrying a gun. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 
I think guns should have the capacity to incapacitate. There's basically 2 sure ways to stop a bad person from doing great bodily injury:

1. Blood pressure loss
2. Disruption of the central nervous system

There's also "psychological stops" where bad guy just gives up for whatever reason but this is not a sure.

IMO a psychological stop could be induced by things like less lethal.

I think there's problems with "guns" that aren't guns.

Pepper spray, tasers, and Jiu Jitsu class are all good ideas, though.


I am of the opinion that as soon as a gun looking thing is introduced to a violent encounter, all parties involved may assume that it really is a gun and may act accordingly.
 
IMHO if you use something like a pepper ball gun or mace or a taser on someone and it fails to stop them your basically F*$#ed because if they didn't intend to cause you great bodily harm or death prior to your use of non lethal force they will after.
 
There is no way I would trust my life to a Byrna. We used a pepperball gun with OC balls. It was not very effective. Before I used a Byrna I would use a fogger/cone shaped mist OC spray. I have used OC on perhaps 70+ people and regard it as 80% effective but I was limited to the foam which doesn't affect respiration. (some people will still fight through it.).
 
twofewscrews said:
IMHO if you use something like a pepper ball gun or mace or a taser on someone and it fails to stop them your basically F*$#ed because if they didn't intend to cause you great bodily harm or death prior to your use of non lethal force they will after.
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This is certainly true, though the same is problem exists if you shoot someone, but don't stop them. The shotee is not going to be a happy camper.
Posted a similar question elsewhere; what can you carry when you can't/won't carry an actual gun.
Also responded to a question in the WSJ, about 'non lethal' ammunition. If fired from an actual gun, it is apt to be viewed as deadly force in the eyes of the law. We'll ignore the availability of such ammunition to civilians.
There's no good answer to the question of something non-lethal.
Personally, I've gone to a Kimber Pepper Spray, which looks a small pistol, with two pyrotechnic-driven charges of capsicum spray.
I have some older ones, that ought to be shot just to see their function.
Moon
 
I have one kid who is VERY anti gun. So when Byrna finally got the kinks worked out I bought one for her. After trying it out to make sure it worked I was so impressed I bought another for me. For the kid since she refuses to have a gun its a "better than dial a prayer" thing. I told her shoot them in the face. For me I carry one on a property I run after we are closed to deal with fence jumpers. I am armed at the same time. The less than is in hopes I can stop them and not have to drop them. They get a LOT of hate which matters not to me as I don't own a piece of the Co. Have had a few people buy one after trying mine. Byrna should send me a T-shirt :rofl:
 
I hope she's a good shot!

Hitting someone in head is hard enough under ideal conditions. Now try hitting them under extreme circumstances.

Any kind of spray should be backed up with a firearm. Spray, get distance and then draw firearm if person is still a threat.

As @twofewscrews said, if the less lethal doesn't work, said person is going to be more pissed! Can your daughter guess, who's going to be on the receiving end of that rage?
 
Mk-211 said:
I hope she's a good shot!

Hitting someone in head is hard enough under ideal conditions. Now try hitting them under extreme circumstances.

Any kind of spray should be backed up with a firearm. Spray, get distance and then draw firearm if person is still a threat.

As @twofewscrews said, if the less lethal doesn't work, said person is going to be more pissed! Can your daughter guess, who's going to be on the receiving end of that rage?
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I would LOVE for her to have a gun. Offered many times to buy her one. She sadly refuses. I can't force her to have one since she is almost 40. As for good shot that goes with guns even more. An amazing number of gun owners who tell me how good they are suddenly can't hit paper when I get to the range with them. This is paper that's not moving so I guess they have to hope they scare the bad guy away :rofl:
 
Mk-211 said:
Show her this, I started laughing when the guy got shot the second time. The first bounced off his hoodie and was 100% ineffective, same as the second shot.T

youtu.be

Byrna SD Non-Lethal Protection Real Testing, Will It Stop A Attacker ?

Byrna SD Non-Lethal Protection Real Testing, Will It Stop A Attacker ?Only one way to find out for sure. Nothing in this video should ever be attempted at ho...
youtu.be youtu.be
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So her having nothing will be better, ok.no thanks but you do you
 
Non-lethal will always be the best choice and lethal will always be the very last resort. It is a very simple thought to type on a blog and an extremely difficult choice to make in the heat of battle. My hat is off to those that have the mental discipline to choose correctly.
 
Non lethal is, imo, top of the list. Pepper balls, beanbags, those wee rubber batons
all do the tick and hurt like the dickens.
 
First of all, calling a weapon non-lethal is oxymoronic. I mean that literally -- people can and do die from injuries caused by almost anything.

Over the years, I've made a couple of "less-than-lethal" recommendations to friends with special circumstances.

One was for a very independent 90-something who kept a single-shot shotgun near his bed. Because of his particular personality and physical disabilities, which I won't go into further, I tried to talk him out of keeping a gun. When that didn't work, I got him some 12-gauge plastic baton "bear" rounds.

Our Products - Less Lethal Rounds - Integrity Ballistics

Integrity Ballistics offers the best less-lethal rounds on the market for law enforcement, corrections, game wardens, and homeowners.
www.integrityballistics.com www.integrityballistics.com

One advantage of this ammo is that the intimidation factor of the weapon remains unchanged. Baton rounds will occasionally cause lethal injury, but my understanding is that's relatively uncommon. They will certainly deliver far more blunt trauma than a Byrna projectile, and are far less lethal than regular buckshot or slugs.

The second situation was a young woman who had an old psych issue on her record that prevented her from legally owning a firearm in my state. More specifics I won't go into. A black powder revolver was one option she could legally purchase, but I didn't know the legal aspects about ownership in her circumstances. Instead, I suggested she consider buying both a Taser and pepper spray.

These choices have drawbacks and limitations, but FWIW they seemed the most appropriate to me under the specific circumstances.
 
anything including beanbags or plastic batons could under the right circumstances could cause fatal injuries. especially in a riot or crowd control situation. still better imho than live amunition.
 
Having trained and used less lethal tools, Tasers and OC spray, I will say this, be prepared to transition to a higher level of force of and when they don't work. Taser has the best marketing department I've ever seen. 80% of the time they work 20% of the time... Probes must make a good connection for them to work. Clothing, movement, and other factors can keep NMI from occuring.

OC spray is fantastic, but you have to watch the wind and hit them in the chest or face for it to take full effect. I can, and have, fought through a less than ideal deployment. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather use OC than my Taser. But OC can be an area effect weapon.

We use pepperball guns at work all the time. It is a fantastic tool and pava powder will absolutely take the fight out of most people. But not everyone. And pava is effective no matter if it is you, the bad guy, or some random person.

Nothing is non lethal. Less lethal is better than nothing, but I'd not bet my life on it. You must be prepared to escalate force should it not work and the threat is still real. And honestly, if someone draws that thing on me I'm drawing my gun. I'm not waiting to find out it's a "non lethal" launcher.
 
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Steve S. said:
Non-lethal will always be the best choice and lethal will always be the very last resort. It is a very simple thought to type on a blog and an extremely difficult choice to make in the heat of battle. My hat is off to those that have the mental discipline to choose correctly.
Click to expand...
Fortunately almost everyone here will never be in a spot where they have to shoot another person. Sadly a LOT of people behind a keyboard "think" they are ready to do so who are not. An amazing number if put on the spot make critical errors. Don't shoot when they should, shoot when they should not, can't hit what they shoot "at" and so forth. Those who have had to shoot always come away wishing they had not had to unless they have a few screws loose. Its not ANYTHING like many want to think it is. Also now days depending on where you live even a "good shoot" can lead to life changing hassles.
 
Alex Clayton said:
Fortunately almost everyone here will never be in a spot where they have to shoot another person. Sadly a LOT of people behind a keyboard "think" they are ready to do so who are not. An amazing number if put on the spot make critical errors. Don't shoot when they should, shoot when they should not, can't hit what they shoot "at" and so forth. Those who have had to shoot always come away wishing they had not had to unless they have a few screws loose. Its not ANYTHING like many want to think it is. Also now days depending on where you live even a "good shoot" can lead to life changing hassles.
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Yep.^^^
 
I recently got into vintage paintball guns, partly as a way to be able to launch pepperballs as well as other .68cal projectiles and partly just for fun. A .68 cal projectile at 300 FPS can be lethal so these things are not much use to any civilian from a direct anti-personel self defense perspective but there can be applications for agressive wildlife and area denial purposes.
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
I recently got into vintage paintball guns, partly as a way to be able to launch pepperballs as well as other .68cal projectiles and partly just for fun. A .68 cal projectile at 300 FPS can be lethal so these things are not much use to any civilian from a direct anti-personel self defense perspective but there can be applications for agressive wildlife and area denial purposes.
Click to expand...
I used to use a Tipman marker with these rubber reusable training ammo to run off Canada Geese here. The ammo is bright orange so in daylight it was easy to see and discouraged hell out of the Geese. Now I have a little dog that does it. If I see any out on the grounds I just take her out and point to the birds. She goes after them like a guided missile. She has a blast and I get rid of the mess makers. So win win:D
 
Alex Clayton said:
So her having nothing will be better, ok.no thanks but you do you
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It's not necessarily that her having nothing would be better but her having nothing wouldn't be any less effective than having something that doesn't work.



Like almost everything else I post I've said this before, several times.

I worked as a security guard for 15 years.

I had multiple encounters with homeless people and vagrants while I was working. As a security guard I was required to wear an approved uniform that very clearly identified me as a security guard. I was almost always wearing visible body armor I was almost always carrying a visible firearm.

Almost across the board every single time I approached somebody to remove them from property the first (Printable) words out of their mouth were "What are you going to do shoot me?"

A few of them drew weapons on me knowing that I was armed with a handgun.

But almost without fail every time I took the fox Labs off my belt and started shaking it up I got instant compliance.

I really believe that most people don't actually think you're going to shoot them but they have no such reassurance that you won't spray them.

I said all that to say that your daughter would probably be better off with a great big can of whatever OC your local police department carries than with a pepper ball gun.

I say this with one caveat. I don't like gel sprays. Gel sprays, in my opinion, take too long to take effect

I have respiratory issues and even with me gel spray takes too long to take effect.
 
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bobbigdaay said:
Just wondering what you guys think of non lethal guns such as the much hyped Byrna launcher.
Click to expand...

Not better than spray and terribly unreliable.

Let me ask you to think about this...do you see any law enforcement carrying this? None do. The reason is they're not close to comparable to the OC sprays that they currently carry.
bobbigdaay said:
I was thinking about getting one for my daughter who though not anti gun by any stretch of the imagination doesn't feel quite comfortable carrying a gun.
Click to expand...

Don't. As stated before, they're less reliable than sprays.

Was this for her to carry every day? If so, she'll forget it since it isn't convenient to carry. She'll remember a keychain spray.

If it is for the home...remember that anyone that comes into her home will be a threat that needs to be completely be stopped. Unreliable gadgets aren't the answer. Reliable and proven less lethal tools like large OC sprays and air tasers are more reliable and therefore 1000% preferable.
 
hso said:
Let me ask you to think about this...do you see any law enforcement carrying this? None do. The reason is they're not close to comparable to the OC sprays that they currently carry.
Click to expand...
Robert just said that EPCSO carries pepperball guns and uses them all the time. I'm betting mostly at the jail but they still carry them.
 
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