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Not Again: .223 vs. 7.62 by 39

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Drakejake, Apr 27, 2005.

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  1. Drakejake

    Drakejake Member

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    Which of these two major calibres gets the edge for self-defense and battlefield use in semi-auto rifles? If a gang started firing at your house, would you pick up the Mini-14 or the AK? Does the much heavier bullet of the 7.62 compensate for the higher velocity and alleged tumbling motion of the .223? I know this is a stale topic but I would like some fresh ideas.

    Thanks,

    Drakejake
     
  2. natedog

    natedog Member

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    Between a Mini-14 and an AK? AK anyday, but not because of the round. I prefer 5.56. Either will do, though.

    Edited to add: It's not alleged tumbling. Fire a 5.56mm M193 round into nearly any medium denser than air (water, pumpkin, animal, ballistic geletin, etc.) and you can see the fragmentation for yourself.
     
  3. g56

    g56 Member

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    I would pick up my AR15, the 5.56mm is a more effective round than 7.62x39 and the AR is far more accurate. I'm not wading through the rice paddies or jungles of SE Asia, so reliability under jungle conditions isn't an issue, my AR has perfect reliability under the conditions that I use it.
     
  4. epijunkie67

    epijunkie67 Member

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    Realize you aren't going to get bullet fragmentation without enough velocity so in part it depends on your weapon system and range. The lighter, faster 5.56 will make it easier to hit at a distance though.

    Up close I think either will cause plenty of damage and if the range is under 75 yards I'd pick the weapon that was the most reliable and fed hi cap mags the best. I think a better comparison might be between the AK and a keltec SU16. Both cheap, accept high caps, reliable, and the Su has enough barrel to utilize the 5.56. In that case I'd say.... Pick the one you're most comfortable shooting.
     
  5. MagnumCaliber357

    MagnumCaliber357 Member

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    I would be more comfortable knowing my rifle can hit something past 300 yrds with decent accuracy ..Thats why id pick up an AR platform over the AK

    If i want stopping power I'll match it with my 1911 at my hip :D

    :scrutiny: Now if i had to go into a jungle filled with mutant zombies .... Id prob pick up the AK for reliablity and durablity
     
  6. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    To use an updated version of a somewhat politically incorrect idiom (by some people's standards):

    Its the Native American that matters, not the arrows he's using. ;)
     
  7. rockstar.esq

    rockstar.esq Member

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    Uhhh is the .308 Win an option? 45-70? How about 30-06?
    Just messing around, I'd chose which ever one I could shoot better.
     
  8. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    If a gang started firing at my house I'd grab whatever was close and ready. In my case it would be....well, both 7.62 and .223. Of course, they're both coming out of AKs :neener: Does that help?

    Seriously, at "gang firing at house" distances, you're not going to be taking advantage of the .223's accuracy edge, so you might as well grab whatever is reliable that you're comfortable with. In other words, your scenario doesn't lend itself to making a caliber distinction. As far as tumbling goes, both are going to go through the car door that is serving as the banger's protection.

    That said, there will be no Mini-14 in my house unless it is given to me for free.
     
  9. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Its interesting that the ranges at which the accuracy of the AR15 make a difference are also beyond the range where fragmentation can be expected. ARs are DEFINATLY better at hitting targets at 300 yards than an AK, but at that range the itty-bitty bullet starts to make a difference. Really, U.S. snipers solved this dilema a long time ago by simply not using .223 to engage targets at long range. They use .308 (and some other stuff im sure) and for that sort of work it makes a lot of sense.

    Of course the original poster didnt even mention the AR15 as an option. When comparing the mini-14 and AK47 accuracy isnt an issue, since they are pretty comparable. I would pick whichever one you have found to be more reliable. Conventional wisdom seems to indicate that the AK is the better choice in this department, but conventional wisdom doesnt help you much with you and your particular rifles.

    Its academic for me anyways, I cant imagine a justifiable civilian shooting at 300 yards anyways. In real life i seriously doubt that even 20 yards is likely. At that range i dont think the choice matters very much. Both the 5.56 and the 7.62x39 have put a LOT of people in the ground, and there is no reason to expect that they wouldnt do the same for you.
     
  10. Commissar Gribb

    Commissar Gribb Member

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    The obvious justification for shooting someone that far away is if they themselves are shooting at you with a rifle.

    I see the chances of this being far rarer but still- that would be the situation.
     
  11. Quintin Likely

    Quintin Likely Member

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    If they're a few hundred yards away, that gives me the opportunity to make a strategic retreat before anything else.

    I only have an AR, so if it were me, the choice would default to .223.
     
  12. LeonCarr

    LeonCarr Member

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    Flame suit on :).

    I like the AK better myself. I shoot the 7.62 x 39 because it is cheaper to shoot, and in my opinion has better terminal ballistics than the 5.56. We have heard billions of stories about stopping power issues with the 5.56, especially with the M4/M855 combination in places like Somalia and Iraq, but you very rarely, if ever, hear about Failure to Neutralize issues with an AK or SKS. At gang banging distances, either the AR or AK/SKS will work. For reaching past 300 yards, gimme a .308 or an '06.

    I would say that I hate the Mini-14, but you have to care about a rifle to hate it :).

    Just my .02,
    LeonCarr
     
  13. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    "Once more, into the breach dear friends..." ;)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2005
  14. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    Since I don't own an AKxx or an ARxx, I'll pick up what I DO have...

    The US Rifle Cal .30 M1...popularly known as "The Garand"


    p.s. Love Gewehr98's lion pic....ROFL
     
  15. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

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    My .02 on .223 v 7.62X39

    "IF" bad guys ever come to my door, they'll be met first by my "ferociuos" 11 lb. boston terrier. If she doesn't lick them to death, she'll annoy the S*%T out of them while I grab the goods and stash the wife & kiddo. But she's about as effective as both the .223 and the 7.62X39 IMHO, just simply annoying. ;) Just kidding...sort of.

    I'm a .308 guy and use my M1A for everything short or long range so this is a non-issue for me. If you think you can't afford a .308 battle rifle think again, the Saiga rufle is an awesome weapon based on the AK rifle system and still available from Kentucky Importers for >$300.00. Hi-cap mags will be available this summer. If you've got alittle more cash, get a VEPR for about $650.00 or a little more....once again AWESOME weapon based on AK system.

    If you've got enough $$$$ for an AR you can afford a Norinco M1A. Of course that starts a whole other "STALE" debate about Norinco vs. Springfield. My Norinco seems to shoot just as well as any other and if something breaks after 10 gazzillion rounds I'll fix it. That s what spare parts are for.

    "IF" bad guys come to my house at gang bang distance they will meet the Remington 12 gauge or the Volunteer Arms Commando Mark III .45 cal carbine. At >100 yards the .45 is just about as effective as both and I got 56 rounds in a drum. :D

    To me this whole debate is summed up like this...choose the most gun you can afford and shoot it often enough to hit what your aiming at. When the hobgobblins come, ANY real gun you can hit with is better than a theoretically perfect weapon you've put off buying!
     
  16. cookekdjr

    cookekdjr Member

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    If a gang started firing at your house, would you pick up the Mini-14 or the AK?

    Samuel Jackson said it best (playing the gunrunner "Ordell" in the movie Jackie Brown):

    "Here we go. AK-47, the very best there is. When you absolutely positively have to kill every [Art's Grammaw] in the room, accept no substitute."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2008
  17. Drakejake

    Drakejake Member

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    I cannot resist adding that Jackie Brown includes a good lesson in personnel management. Samuel Jackson shows Robert De Niro a dead body in the trunk of his car. When De Niro asks who he is, Jackson replies, "An employee I had to let go."

    Drakejake
     
  18. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    Give me my AK over the AR. My go to mag is a 40 rounder filled with pointed soft points, not the standard fmj round. The bugger works all the time, and up here were it gets really cold i want somthing that wont freeze up on me.
     
  19. Essex County

    Essex County Member

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    Gefewr 98 is right on the money! Have examples of both. Refuse to enter this hog wallow..........Essex
     
  20. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    You bet -- and with some decent softnose handloads. :D
     
  21. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Could that be because teh US Army does not use the AK in large numbers?

    Go with whatever you shoot best. I would probably plan for the 'kicking-in-your-door' scenario, not the 'theyre 300 yards away and trying to snipe me' scenario.
     
  22. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    We have an annual "AK vs. AR" 3gun-style Rifle match, in which each shooter shoots the entire match with his AR, and then reshoots the same stages with an AK.

    On the CQB stage, scores were real close.

    On the medium and long range stages (150-400 yards), the AR had a definite advantage due mainly to: vastly better sights (A2), accuracy, and ergonomics. Mag changes were faster with the AR.

    -z
     
  23. Gun God

    Gun God member

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    5.56mm NATO versus 7.62mm SOVIET

    Well, with your given scenario, a 5.56mm is alot more easier to control. Get some soft points and your set. Then again, a AK-103 can soften up a 7.62mm soviets recoil down and with soft points, can do a hell of alot better than 5.56mm.
     
  24. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    M1 Garand, M14, .30-30, or 12guage
     
  25. Gun God

    Gun God member

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    Can you choose any worser weapons? You are probably one of those old timers who think full power rounds are the best thing that ever happened. In the "gang shooting at your house" scenario, the fighting will be no more than 30-50 meters. It's COMPLETELY pointless to have a weapon that shoots a very powerfull round like the 30-06 or the 7.62mmNATO(.308 to you civilians). The reason is that the gang members are not just standing there waiting for you to shoot them. They are running around talking cover as you should be. Through out the confusion, when you do spot the enemy, you need to quickly shoot a few rounds rapidly and controllably because that just might be your only chance. It's FAR easier to do a "double tap" with a Mini14 rather than with an M14. I'll say it again, you dont like fragmentating 5.56mm ball rounds? Use soft points or hollow points. they will retain pretty much all of thier weight and devestate the enemy because of the bullets momentum and expansion.

    Seriously, i hope some of you never get into a gun fight. Chances are that with the poor knowledge about wound ballistics and poor knowledge you guys have about combat skills, you probably wont make it out alive.
     
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